Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[GenerationW]

Good grief man, did you just compare David Miller to Adolph Hitler!

No, but thanks for playing.

 

[Ansem]

***We were discussing this on the miller quiting thread***

If we could rally most of us here on this compromise:

-Sheppard Subway from Sheppard-Yonge to STC via Victoria Park, Warden, Agincourt GO.

-Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to Meadowvale and the Toronto Zoo

-Minimal 85 bus service on Sheppard from Sheppard-Yonge to Agincourt. The extra buses could be used on other routes who needs the extra service.

-Cancels the 190 bus. All those buses can be used on other routes.

-Sheppard Subway from Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview via Bathurst (the TTC is waiting for the Richmond hill extension to make this happen)
*This Cancel the 196 bus*

-No cancellations
-2 Major Center and transit hub linked by Rapid Transit
-Better network connectivity
-Will drastically increase the ridership on Sheppard and attract much more commuters.

We could write something on behalf of us to Smithersman since Miller won't listen anyways and to all Scarborough and Northyork councillors on this corridor who are slowly waking up on this so they can push this...

Makes sense?

 

[Ryan]

***We were discussing this on the miller quiting thread***

If we could rally most of us here on this compromise:

-Sheppard Subway from Sheppard-Yonge to STC via Victoria Park, Warden, Agincourt GO.

-Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to Meadowvale and the Toronto Zoo

-Minimal 85 bus service on Sheppard from Sheppard-Yonge to Agincourt. The extra buses could be used on other routes who needs the extra service.

-Cancels the 190 bus. All those buses can be used on other routes.

-Sheppard Subway from Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview via Bathurst (the TTC is waiting for the Richmond hill extension to make this happen)
*This Cancel the 196 bus*

-No cancellations
-2 Major Center and transit hub linked by Rapid Transit
-Better network connectivity
-Will drastically increase the ridership on Sheppard and attract much more commuters.

We could write something on behalf of us to Smithersman since Miller won't listen anyways and to all Scarborough and Northyork councillors on this corridor who are slowly waking up on this so they can push this...

Makes sense?

I've often thought.. after connecting the Sheppard line to Downsview, it can follow the Spadina extensionto Finch West, then continue west along Finch..

 

[Voltz]

***We were discussing this on the miller quiting thread***

If we could rally most of us here on this compromise:

-Sheppard Subway from Sheppard-Yonge to STC via Victoria Park, Warden, Agincourt GO.

-Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to Meadowvale and the Toronto Zoo

-Minimal 85 bus service on Sheppard from Sheppard-Yonge to Agincourt. The extra buses could be used on other routes who needs the extra service.

-Cancels the 190 bus. All those buses can be used on other routes.

-Sheppard Subway from Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview via Bathurst (the TTC is waiting for the Richmond hill extension to make this happen)
*This Cancel the 196 bus*

-No cancellations
-2 Major Center and transit hub linked by Rapid Transit
-Better network connectivity
-Will drastically increase the ridership on Sheppard and attract much more commuters.

We could write something on behalf of us to Smithersman since Miller won't listen anyways and to all Scarborough and Northyork councillors on this corridor who are slowly waking up on this so they can push this...

Makes sense?

It does make sense, but more needs to be done than just saying we agree on or want this. An business case that shows an overwhelming cost benefit and need compared to the current plan needs to be presented.

There also needs to be a realistic expectation that it would not take 20 years to get subway built, considering everything else that is happening.

 

[GraphicMatt]

I also think we'd need to closely compare that option versus the eventual replacement of the current subway with underground LRT - costs, speed, reliability, etc.

 

[Fresh Start]

^^ Downgrading the subway because of an ill-conceived LRT plan is a waste of funds. Ridership through the corridor has actually grown over the years and would likely be lost by the introduction of a less attractive service (slower speeds, lack of private ROW, more minor stops, misses major nodes).

Ansem: While the connection between Don Mills and Scarborough Centre is vital, I feel its less so about the gap between Downsview and Sheppard-Yonge. The 84 bus is only really full during rush hour and most of the intermediate stops go unused most of the day. That 6 kms of track should go towards somewhere else where there's higher demand. The 196E between the the two Y-U-S arms is actually very fast, only taking 10 minutes to traverse. Running the Finch West LRT down the median of Yonge St between Finch and Sheppard could also provide a more rapid link between the two arms while providing bonus rapid transit for a dense and busy part of the Yonge corridor. Better that than the silly Finch East-Don Mills alignment that won't even link to Seneca, no?

For the Sheppard subway extension I'd do Consumers, Chichester, Bay Mills, Allenford, Agincourt and Glen Watford; with the stations occuring at the mid-blocks rather than directly off major arterials but connected directly to them via platform's length dedicated walkways (similar to what's practiced at Leslie Stn). Such spacing eliminates the need for a parallel bus service along Sheppard, west of Brimley. After Glen Watford, the next stop would be the Scarborough Centre running above-grade in its own guideway. Possibly Sheppard and B-D could be interlined at this point, making for a continuous one-seat ride from upper downtown to North York City Ctr via Scarborough. An infill stop at Willowdale is also recommendable.

Instead of any form of the Sheppard East LRT line, just beef up the usefulness of the SRT extension. Most people don't live directly off of Sheppard and only use it as a connector to intended destinations. Past Malvern Town Ctr, have the line stop at Morningside & Finch and then terminate at the Metro Zoo, where connections to the 39, 116 and 86 buses would be possible. The backtrack from Finch to Sheppard is negligible for the small niche who'd actually seek the Morningside/Sheppard area.

 

[kEiThZ]

^^ Downgrading the subway because of an ill-conceived LRT plan is a waste of funds.

Agreed. However, you just know that the day the LRT opens people are going to be asking why the hell the transfer is there. This will be another Scarborough Town Centre to the average rider. I think some of the North York politicians are finally beginning to understand this.

I don't think it's that big a deal to retrofit the subway to handle LRT cars. It'd still be a subway. Just with different trains. Is it worth the cost of conversion? That's a judgement call. In my books, if they are absolutely going to rule out subway extension in the future (and it seems like they are) then I'd rather not have the transfer.

Ridership through the corridor has actually grown over the years and would likely be lost by the introduction of a less attractive service (slower speeds, lack of private ROW, more minor stops, misses major nodes).

Yet Miller remains a god and criticizing Transit City is blasphemy.
For the Sheppard subway extension I'd do Consumers, Chichester, Bay Mills, Allenford, Agincourt and Glen Watford; with the stations occuring at the mid-blocks rather than directly off major arterials but connected directly to them via platform's length dedicated walkways (similar to what's practiced at Leslie Stn).

That seems like a strange idea. And one that would be expensive. Allanford and Bay Mills are minor streets compared to Pharmacy and Birchmount. Your plan would still miss those but make tons of people getting off at the major intersections walk to the station. It's essentially a plan to force thousands of riders to walk daily. I doubt that would make anybody really happy....underground tunnel or not.

Instead of any form of the Sheppard East LRT line, just beef up the usefulness of the SRT extension. Most people don't live directly off of Sheppard and only use it as a connector to intended destinations. Past Malvern Town Ctr, have the line stop at Morningside & Finch and then terminate at the Metro Zoo, where connections to the 39, 116 and 86 buses would be possible. The backtrack from Finch to Sheppard is negligible for the small niche who'd actually seek the Morningside/Sheppard area.

I live at Morningside and Finch. There is nothing there worth spending a ton on with the SRT. This is why I have suggested that the replacement for the SRT should be a combination of a Bloor-Danforth extension till STC and a Transit City style LRT on Progress and the hydro corridor north of Sheppard till Malvern Town Centre. In future, if it's warranted the LRT could also support a branch down Markham Road into Markham and/or an extension up Neilson Road to Finch. This is where LRT would shine. However, as a faux subway it's a fail.

 

[GraphicMatt]

^^ Downgrading the subway because of an ill-conceived LRT plan is a waste of funds. Ridership through the corridor has actually grown over the years and would likely be lost by the introduction of a less attractive service (slower speeds, lack of private ROW, more minor stops, misses major nodes).

I don't really think coupled LRT cars running in a tunnel is a 'downgrade' from subway trains running in a tunnel. You wouldn't need to add stations or stops or anything. The biggest downside would be the effect the at-grade portion of the line would have on the speed/reliability of the underground portion.

 

[Second_in_pie]

***We were discussing this on the miller quiting thread***

If we could rally most of us here on this compromise:

-Sheppard Subway from Sheppard-Yonge to STC via Victoria Park, Warden, Agincourt GO.

-Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to Meadowvale and the Toronto Zoo

-Minimal 85 bus service on Sheppard from Sheppard-Yonge to Agincourt. The extra buses could be used on other routes who needs the extra service.

-Cancels the 190 bus. All those buses can be used on other routes.

-Sheppard Subway from Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview via Bathurst (the TTC is waiting for the Richmond hill extension to make this happen)
*This Cancel the 196 bus*

-No cancellations
-2 Major Center and transit hub linked by Rapid Transit
-Better network connectivity
-Will drastically increase the ridership on Sheppard and attract much more commuters.

We could write something on behalf of us to Smithersman since Miller won't listen anyways and to all Scarborough and Northyork councillors on this corridor who are slowly waking up on this so they can push this...

Makes sense?

This sounds better than Transit City, but I still have to question the need of including the SE LRT. Putting in the Sheppard Subway to Agincourt would already improve travel times from Malvern more than a full LRT would. Past Agincourt, there's very, very little traffic on Sheppard anyways, and there's lots of road room. LRT would have the most impact on travel times about west of Midland, and very little difference east of Midland. The capacity isn't needed either, so again, why does it need to be built if you're gonna have a subway?

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Because we seem to be past the point of no return when it comes to the construction of the SELRT. If the thing can't be canned then why not at least push for it to be truncated and the subway extended.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^ Because we seem to be past the point of no return when it comes to the construction of the SELRT. If the thing can't be canned then why not at least push for it to be truncated and the subway extended.

This is where I think people get the weird impression that "if something gets funded, it needs to be built." Do you honestly think that if the province was going to agree to giving money to build the Sheppard subway and the city said "we don't need the LRT now," that it'd really be a case of "no, it's funded and therefore it has to get built" ?

Of course not! If you really think that, you need to get a huge reality check. Possibly search up "Eglinton Subway," which is even a super-extreme version of this. For Eglinton the Province just cut all funding for the project, while in this case, the province would be giving up one project for a better project.

 

[kEiThZ]

It's not the province I am concerned about. Eglinton West was taken down by Harris against the wishes of Toronto's civic leadership. If the senior levels of Toronto's civic leadership back the SELRT even if Miller isn't around, what hope is there that the province would change their minds?

The only way the province will change its mind is if the leading candidates for mayor start offering different visions other than Transit City and more particularly alternate visions for Sheppard. I am skeptical that's going to happen. At best we can hope for some candidates to challenge the routes that haven't started construction.

 

[Ansem]

Personally, I would build the subway from NYC to STC and scratch the LRT completely to transfer the funds to the subway so that at least a Billion dollar is already there. If an Lrt could be adde, if the extra funds are there then it would be a bonus.

Many here and maybe out there won't accept or believe that cancelling the project is either good or possible. That's why I wrote this, as a compromise so we could collectively agree on something and have a general consensus that Sheppard East LRT the way it is now is a mistake. With that consensus, we could use our energy at pushing our concerns to the councilors instead of using it at quoting and refuting each other in endless pages of replies. Maybe a letter with a document with arguments, numbers, impacts etc, sent to the city councilors along the corridor so they could use their influence to educate the population by media or mail (they have budget for those kind of things, I think and it's their job to do it). If that doesn't work, we go to the candidates for Mayor when they make themselves known.

Since councilors decided to read the project recently and waking up to the implications that it have, we should invite them to educate as many people as they can so they could raise their voices demanding a subway with the support of the population. Same thing for the RT. The majority of Torontonians not living in Scarborough or North York would support this.

I think such a document on our behalf is much more powerful than just me doing it, and another one there etc...

We provide them arguments and we point out:

-The facts: a billion for a ridiculous speed increase, extra transfer, no connection to STC, beautification can happen without LRT and with a subway.(Sheppard avenue East until Don Mills is living proof)
-All the negative effect of the project (questionable service gain, possibility of decrease in service for some, effect on businesses
-All the miss opportunities (Agincourt GO, Rapid Transit between 2 major transit hub and town centers.)
-Alternatives: A) Subway+Bus transfering the billion to subway and find the rest B)Subway+LRT from Agincourt to Meadowvale and Toronto Zoo

I also think that those in favor of LRT conversion of the line or to never finish the line have either:

A-Never been To NYC
B-Haven't gone there for a very long time
C-Underestimate it's potential and what it is today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_York,_Ontario

The central area is gradually ceasing to be suburban, resembling a smaller version of the city's downtown. Major corporations have built their own office towers along Yonge Street in central North York, including the Canadian head offices of Procter & Gamble, Nestlé, Cadbury Adams, Lindt & Sprüngli, Equifax, and Xerox, while the Government of Canada maintains offices north of Sheppard Avenue. Many more office and condo towers have sprouted in the area of this photo since it was taken.

North York projects and that's only intersection Sheppard and Yonge:

You have rapid transit taking people to NYC from the South and the North but nothing from the east or the west. Any city planners in the world would call this a monumental rookie mistake and a missed opportunity.

Miller and Giambrone clearly have no idea what they were doing and haven't spend much time here. It isn't a secret that Miller never had much consideration for what was happening north of Eglinton.

Those saying that the idea of finishing the subway was already dying are mistaken. Before Miller and Giambrone, it was still a general consensus that Downsview to STC needed to happen and it was part of the 2011 plan, and then came Miller.

A great city isn't defined by only it's downtown area. If you can make as many areas of your city successful as you can, you will have a first class city. Giving alternatives to business so that they have the flexibility in choosing to set up their HQ downtown, Eglinton-Yonge, STC or NYC is a huge advantage than many cities would dream of having. You have more chance at winning them over by giving them options then having them just going elsewhere…wherever they chose to go, the taxes goes to Toronto.

In Montreal, they lost so many businesses lately to Laval who is growing so fast. They are getting 3 extra subway stations for a total of 6 and their downtown is growing fast...population? 376,845.

Sheppard East LRT is pure sabotage since it will slow the growth rate that a subway East-west would have brought north of the city, which would ultimately benefit the whole city.

I may seem bias since I live in North York and work at NYC. I would fight just as hard for any other part of the city since I support the RT becoming a subway like some councilors are very slowly realizing. By all mean an LRT would have made MUCH more sense on Islington than Sheppard East. I think Etobicoke was left behind.

Politics 101

-Many councilors put pressure on Miller when they refused to vote in favor of the deal to end the strike because they were pressure by the voters they represented to vote against it.

-In this case, it's in reverse...Councilors are waking up and are verbally against LRT and for the subway on Sheppard and RT. Their voters? They don't really know what's going on. They have the means to inform everyone on what's being discussed here. It's our duty as citizens since we all love our city to tell them to do their job and at least try to prevent a mistake that will take decades to correct…

 

[yyzhyd]

^^ You had me confused with the "NYC" acronym... you may want to try NYCC

 

[Fresh Start]

Agreed. However, you just know that the day the LRT opens people are going to be asking why the hell the transfer is there. This will be another Scarborough Town Centre to the average rider. I think some of the North York politicians are finally beginning to understand this.

I don't think it's that big a deal to retrofit the subway to handle LRT cars. It'd still be a subway. Just with different trains. Is it worth the cost of conversion? That's a judgement call. In my books, if they are absolutely going to rule out subway extension in the future (and it seems like they are) then I'd rather not have the transfer.

What's especially perplexing is why isn't it a cross-platform interchange. It'd make the proposal an easier pill to swallow if it were. Ugh, blame Miller.

That seems like a strange idea. And one that would be expensive. Allanford and Bay Mills are minor streets compared to Pharmacy and Birchmount. Your plan would still miss those but make tons of people getting off at the major intersections walk to the station. It's essentially a plan to force thousands of riders to walk daily. I doubt that would make anybody really happy....underground tunnel or not.

It's not strange at all seeing as they'd never consider separate Pharmacy and Birchmount Stns, at least that wasn't on the agenda during the last planning stage. Chichester would really be Vic Park North Stn, just shifted far enough over to make it easy walking distance for riders along Pharmacy. That intersection also has numerous apartment buildings and will soon be the site of a new condominum project.

Bay Mills and Allanford are also optimal spots. Again an apartment cluster at BM, guarantees high walk-in potential from both ends of the station, not just the Warden side. And also remember that buses will layover in the station, not just drop-off/pick-up passengers at an intersection. With the subway extension we could reintroduce the 268 Warden North bus; and the 224 and 169 routes would both terminate at the new station at Chichester.

Allanford's de facto Birchmount and a short detour of the 17 bus via Bonis/Kennedy/Sheppard would introduce transit the condo cluster north of Agincourt Mall. I figure this would center Agincourt Stn at Reidmount Ave, easy walking distance of both the GO Stn and office buildings on the east side of Kennedy.

Glen Watford's optional, but I think it'd make a more logical station site than either where the existing Midland Stn is or where the planned Midland/ Progress Stn would go.

I live at Morningside and Finch. There is nothing there worth spending a ton on with the SRT. This is why I have suggested that the replacement for the SRT should be a combination of a Bloor-Danforth extension till STC and a Transit City style LRT on Progress and the hydro corridor north of Sheppard till Malvern Town Centre. In future, if it's warranted the LRT could also support a branch down Markham Road into Markham and/or an extension up Neilson Road to Finch. This is where LRT would shine. However, as a faux subway it's a fail.

I agree. However the availability to use railside properties for less expensive ROW options makes the Belleville Subdivision through Malvern/Morningside Hts attractive. It'd be nice if the SRT were to swing over to Centennial, then back towards Sheppard/Markham before dipping under the overpass to run in the railway alignment.