Transit City: Sheppard East Debate

[RedRocket191]

LRT went out of cities for a reason. Chicago for example had the biggest streetcar system in the world, I think. They tore it all up. I am like wow wtf how did they have so many lines when I look at the map... the point is that LRT is not a good option for places that are dense.

I think you need a history lesson:

Before the 1930s, streetcar systems were usually run by the local electric company. They ran the trolleys and sold the surplus electricity to consumers. In 1935 an Act of Congress forced them to make a choice - either run streetcars or generate power. Electricity was a growth industry and many chose to sell off the transit business. Newly independent, they had to buy electricity on the open market. Combine new expenses with declining ridership due to the availability of the automobile and you get the mass abandonment in the following years.

If you want to introduce conspiracy theories (and I do), you can argue that the abandonment was hurried by the fact that many of the street railways were purchased by National City Lines, Pacific City Lines and American City Lines - all companies owned by GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, Mack Truck, and others.

Density increases had very little, if nothing to do with the abandonment of the streetcar network in american cities. If anything it was declining densities.

 

[LAz]

I think you need a history lesson:

Before the 1930s, streetcar systems were usually run by the local electric company. They ran the trolleys and sold the surplus electricity to consumers. In 1935 an Act of Congress forced them to make a choice - either run streetcars or generate power. Electricity was a growth industry and many chose to sell off the transit business. Newly independent, they had to buy electricity on the open market. Combine new expenses with declining ridership due to the availability of the automobile and you get the mass abandonment in the following years.

If you want to introduce conspiracy theories (and I do), you can argue that the abandonment was hurried by the fact that many of the street railways were purchased by National City Lines, Pacific City Lines and American City Lines - all companies owned by GM, Firestone Tire, Standard Oil of California, Phillips Petroleum, Mack Truck, and others.

Density increases had very little, if nothing to do with the abandonment of the streetcar network in american cities. If anything it was declining densities.

I totally agree that there was a conspiracy to throw out rail. It was part of the whole suburbanization movement, and the "motorization".
In fact I recommend a good book on that - "the motorization of america" or something like that. So yes, there was much pressure to do that.


But, I do not feel that that was the only reason why it went away. It is very fun to dive into that, and trust me on one thing - I drove people nuts calling GM all sorts of bad stuff on a forum some years ago. But, there's more to the picture than just that. I'll look at chicago again. Suppose I went to a street that had a street car line and look down it. Suppose I imagine a street car line along the street today. Man, would that suck, and in fact suck would be an understatement of how bad the traffic would get. We live in a very different world from the hay day of street cars... a world in which there are far more automobiles than before. We are not gonna get rid of the autos, and should not aim to do that. Investing in mass street-car lines will only create a miserable condition for the autos though. I look at chicago's old street-car map and image the condition today - it would be a drivers nightmare.

But, Toronto would not be much different. I had to drive down eglinton in rush hour back and forth... god that sucked... even when it's not rush hour it sucks bad. I just dread the thought of the space that the street-car line would take up. Light rail simply takes up too much space. Perhaps it might work if we are building a new subdivision where there are not many cars or whatnot... but it costs too much to widen the street.

 

[RedRocket191]

But, Toronto would not be much different. I had to drive down eglinton in rush hour back and forth... god that sucked... even when it's not rush hour it sucks bad. I just dread the thought of the space that the street-car line would take up. Light rail simply takes up too much space. Perhaps it might work if we are building a new subdivision where there are not many cars or whatnot... but it costs too much to widen the street.

The narrow section of Eglinton is being tunneled, but I'm not going to debate semantics. In general, the proposed LRT will leave two lanes of traffic, plus left turn lanes. In most cases in Toronto, the number of driving lanes will not change. On Sheppard, for example, the only part that will lose lanes is between Pharmacy and Consumers - barely 1 km.

Aside from a few relatively short sections of road, I don't see the argument that it will take up too much space.

 

[kettal]

But, Toronto would not be much different. I had to drive down eglinton in rush hour back and forth... god that sucked... even when it's not rush hour it sucks bad. I just dread the thought of the space that the street-car line would take up. Light rail simply takes up too much space. Perhaps it might work if we are building a new subdivision where there are not many cars or whatnot... but it costs too much to widen the street.

I see you not only need a history lesson, but a current affairs lesson, too.

Eglinton Ave will not be losing any lanes of traffic, because it will be widened for the LRT. Also, once the LRT is running, your drive will be more pleasant, as you won't have to share the road with hundreds of TTC buses.

 

[RedRocket191]

Also, once the LRT is running, your drive will be more pleasant, as you won't have to share the road with hundreds of TTC buses.

+1

 

[Spagmess]

World Class!

Please stop comparing Toronto to Chicago or New York. Toronto is not built in the same way as those cities. Chicago has 7 subway lines, but they are all downtown-centric. They have no subway analogue to the Sheppard or Eglinton line. In New York, an analogue to the Transit City lines would connect Brooklyn and The Bronx via Queens. This subway line does not exist. If these 'world class cities' haven't built cross-suburban subways, you can't use them as examples of why we should build cross-suburban subways.

Transit City is not trying to make Toronto a 'world class city'. It is trying to make an improvement in capacity and reliability on the bus service that is bursting at the seams. It is also tying in with the Official Plan to urbanize the main avenues in the suburbs. Don't try to make this project something that it's not. Remember that both Yonge st and Bloor street were extremely busy streetcar lines before the decision was made to build subways. Build the ridership first, then build the infrastructure. One step at a time...

 

[LowerBay]

Ah, I just love these Transit Shitty debates. They never end.

Wouldn't you rather have them build the Sheppard LRT and then "heee haaw" and "i told you so" the Steve Munros of the world? It's a lot more fun that way.

Most of the travelling public really doesn't care one way or the other. Maybe we should replace the Sheppard LRT with the Sheppard ESL (Elevated Ski Lift) -- see the Toronto Star's article here ...

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...--is-it-time-for-toronto-to-finally-get-cable

 

[Fresh Start]

There is always a third option some mayor-hopeful may do: build nothing.

If it were a choice between:

1. $247.5 million per kilometre for a heavy rail subway
2. $42.6 million per kilometre above ground LRT ($142.8 million per kilometre for the tunnelled portion)
3. $0 for status quo

I would go with the LRT, more service across more area.

The next battle for mayor will be with the city budget. A heavy rail subway will be very expensive to build and the Spadina extension will be watched very carefully over costs. Changing the Sheppard East to heavy rail will send the city budget up too much for whatever mayor we get.

Thanks for distorting reality for those not playing along at home. At grade LRT will cost more like $80 million per kilometre and at $1.26 billion for the SMLRT, $1.2 billion for SRT retrofit and extension and $1.030 for the SELRT; we're already talking $3.5 billion expenditure to serve lower-density suburban sprawl with higher-order transit which fifty years from may not reach capacity. Also note that the subway is the highest achieving people mover through Scarborough and it only goes two stops in. For $3.5 billion both the Bloor-Danforth and Sheppard Subways could be extended to end at major trip-generators/transfer points (SCC and Agincourt).

In the grand meantime, the same roadworks that would need to be done for light rail can be implemented for bus-only lanes down the median of Sheppard Avenue to extend all the way to Port Union. Such course of action doesn't detract quality of service from anyone but triggers nodal development and intensification wherever the subway has a stop. Can the same be said for a streetcar? And we only need remind ourselves of the vast stretches of several Toronto streetcar corridors that are low density (Gerrard, parts of Lakeshore, Queen, Dundas) for the answer.

More service along more area? Why does it take multiple transfers in order to link Agincourt to Malvern T.C. or Centennial College or UTSC or Scarborough Civic Centre? Why is it that the SELRT not provide a direct link to major closeby trip generators instead of petering out into the Rouge Valley? If your idea of more service coverage area is to cater to squirrels and car-owners at Dean Park then why is it that the present 85 bus doesn't even meet capacity til McCowan Road? And are the bulk of Zoo patrons heading there via an east-west travel pattern or rather by way of northeast-southwest through Scarborough/Hwy 401?

So you see, the "build nothing" crowd is not of the subway advocate sort. We're not seeking stand-alone 10 kms of subway to X destinations and then that's it. We're just not kidding ourselves into thinking that Sheppard East is some some sort grand palacial suburban thoroughfare where only surface light rail can alleviate commutes. The truth is that longer subways coupled with reduced bus commutes to said subways is superior to road-median mixed traffic LRT that is severely hampered by its designed operating speed and headways.

 

[Fresh Start]

Ah, I just love these Transit Shitty debates. They never end.

Wouldn't you rather have them build the Sheppard LRT and then "heee haaw" and "i told you so" the Steve Munros of the world? It's a lot more fun that way.

Most of the travelling public really doesn't care one way or the other.

After they squandered over a billion dollars that could have gone towards more pressing lines (Eglinton; DRL)? No thank you. But I digress, the public will clamor to ride aboard a subway because it is noticably faster than a streetcar, just ask Beach and Long Branch residents which they prefer when heading downtown.

 

[GenerationW]

the Spadina extension will be watched very carefully over costs.

Watched to make sure Spadina will come in close to budget, or to make sure they'll spend like a drunken sailor building it? Because they both have their uses depending on one's stand regarding future subway expansion.

 

[GTS]

Happy New Year

Well 2009 was a good year for transit funding announcements here in Toronto and other urban areas of Canada. This Sheppard LRT project secured its funding for construction to start as well as other rapid transit projects. I hope after they start this project they at least extend the shortened Sheppard Subway to at least Victoria Park. That way Scarborough would have one more subway station in its region.

I hope 2010 sees lots of transit announcements as well such as;
- The already mentioned Sheppard Subway extension
- Station Modernizing of Warden Station (this is close to my home) I hope they get rid of the separated bus bays and construct a shared platform like Kennedy Station or Scarborough Town Center- it is a lot easier transferring from bus to bus in this design.
- Hope they secure funding for the Yonge extension at least to Steeles
- Yonge Bloor station reconstruction starts
- DRL funding announcement
- Since the Yonge line is being extended at both ends have the Bloor line extended at both ends- West to Sherway Gardens- with Kipling still having the planned MT transit connection and East from Kennedy to Kingston Rd.
- Scarborough Town Center gets a center type of platform for us passengers for this upgraded LRT line.

I have a lot of other hopes and wishes for 2010 I just have to wait and see what the feds and province delivers.

 

[Automation Gallery]

I have a lot of other hopes and wishes for 2010 I just have to wait and see what the feds and province delivers.

The feds and province have done their thing, you have to hope that Mr. Miller and his cronies can deliver.

 

[Chuck]

Considering the billions already committed to Transit City, don't expect ANY subway funding announcements from upper levels of government for years to come, at least until Transit City is built out. The province has already said no to the Yonge extension.

Unless the next mayor of Toronto converts appropriate TC lines to subway, such as Don Mills, Eglinton, and Sheppard, expect no subway funding any time soon.

 

[kettal]

After they squandered over a billion dollars that could have gone towards more pressing lines (Eglinton; DRL)? No thank you. But I digress, the public will clamor to ride aboard a subway because it is noticably faster than a streetcar, just ask Beach and Long Branch residents which they prefer when heading downtown.

Out of curiosity, when you type out this drivel, do you ever think "what if somebody with an IQ higher than 50 actually reads my post, and they point out the massive amounts of BS contained therein?"

 

[RedRocket191]

Unless the next mayor of Toronto converts appropriate TC lines to subway, such as Don Mills, Eglinton, and Sheppard, expect no subway funding any time soon.

And seeing as the mayor of Toronto only has the power of persuasion to make changes to TC at this point, lower those expectations even further.