Transit City Plan

[goreckm]

I've also been reading this thread for a while now.

I honestly think that if the people of Scarborough really want a subway, that's perfectly reasonable. However, fare costs should reflect the capital expenditure and operational costs. We need to move to a zone based system. All proponents of subways say they want us to be a world class city. Well, a lot of them have zone based fares. Someone who lives close to their job should not be penalized for the people that chose to live on the other side of town from where they work. I also think, that once we do have zone based fares (and of course, GO - TTC - etc fare integration), then we will see a lot more people in the suburbs take GO more seriously (assuming we can get some kind of regular service there).

 

[Fac1]

It was 5.8% for 2011 - that's 13.6% in 2 years compared to 2.5% in Toronto in the same period of time. Mississauga was 2.3% in 2010 and 4.5% in 2009. Toronto was 2.9% in 2010 and 4.0% in 2009. I think you have to go back to the 1990s to find a period of time when Mississauga has almost no tax increases.

I ask mainly because of the Star article on this recent tax hike, in which it says...

McCallion, who has not outlined a fiscal plan during recent election campaigns, owes much of her popularity to the near-zero tax increases she was able to offer Mississaugans for more than a decade.

I've been trying to find a history of the city's taxation, but haven't had much success. Is the article referring to the 80s? 90s?

owever, fare costs should reflect the capital expenditure and operational costs. We need to move to a zone based system.

I agree. Has the TTC divulged how they will handle fare collection for the Vaughan extension, if it will be a double fare?

 

[Rational plan]

Surface tram lines are fine for 10,000 phpd. I've seen seen trams operate on a 2 minute frequency in a Boulevard with two normal traffic lanes and parking, there were left turn restrictions though, traffic seemed to flow fine out of rush hours. In particular, constrained junctions could be grade separated, or demolition could be considered in low density commercial areas.

Unless there is the need to carry very high numbers there is no need to build a subway. Toronto has many wide arterials in many cases it is easier to just build a new LRT line on a neighbouring arterial 20 or 30 years down the line when the current one is full, rather than build a Subway.

 

[nfitz]

I've been trying to find a history of the city's taxation, but haven't had much success. Is the article referring to the 80s? 90s?

The Mississauga website isn't as clear as the Toronto website in past tax increases. Also tries to hide the high Mississauga increases, by referring to them based on total tax increases, assuming that education tax and Peel tax doesn't change. I'm not 100% sure, but I saw another Star article that said the freezes were in the 1990s.

Has the TTC divulged how they will handle fare collection for the Vaughan extension, if it will be a double fare?

I think someone pointed out that the documents TTC have signed with the province relating the extension make it clear that there's be a single fare from Vaughan Centre to the TTC system. However, presumably anyone travelling York Region Transit, who travels by YRT to Steeles West or Highway 407, and then changes to subway to travel to Vaughan Centre, will have to pay both the YRT and TTC fare, even though they haven't ever left York Region.

 

[gweed123]

Overall, subways are the way to go in my very humble opinion. Rob Ford now needs to have an honest and frank conversation with the tax payers of Toronto. If they want subways, then they are going to have to be willing to pay for them via new and increased taxes. This idea that the private sector will pay for them is simply a fantasy that Rob Ford needs to stop perpetuating.

This is why, in my opinion, the left-leaning councillors should really stick it to Ford, and here's how:

1) Propose an omnibus bill that introduces road tolls, property tax increases, and re-introduces the vehicle registration tax. All of these would be in order to build subways. In specific, the Sheppard Subway.

2) Watch Rob Ford squirm.

3) Watch Rob Ford shoot it down, because we all know he only wants subways to make it easier to drive.

4) Label Rob Ford as a hypocrite, and watch his approval ratings drop even lower.

And if, by some miracle he does actually vote for it and these things go through, then bonus!

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I think someone pointed out that the documents TTC have signed with the province relating the extension make it clear that there's be a single fare from Vaughan Centre to the TTC system. However, presumably anyone travelling York Region Transit, who travels by YRT to Steeles West or Highway 407, and then changes to subway to travel to Vaughan Centre, will have to pay both the YRT and TTC fare, even though they haven't ever left York Region.

Not a big fan of this. Non-Torontonians should have to pay more. They dont pay Toronto taxes so there is no reason why they should be entitled to the same fare that Torontonians pay.

 

[BurlOak]

Couldn't shouldn't be micromanaging design details like that anyway. Those are decisions for engineers and planners.

In any case, the city cut its transit subsidy this year and is likely to do so again next year. We don't have anywhere near the level of committed operational funding to pay for upkeep of unnecessary underground stations.

The problem is that the decision on stop spacing winds up being put into the public, and a few councillors hands.

If the line is a local line, the let the locals decide.

If the line is a main crosstown line with significant Regional importance as well, the Council should provide guideance on the stop spacing because individual councillors are not in a proper position to eliminate stops, since they have little interest in the regional aspect of the line.

 

[nfitz]

Not a big fan of this. Non-Torontonians should have to pay more. They dont pay Toronto taxes so there is no reason why they should be entitled to the same fare that Torontonians pay.

I agree with you; but the deal is done. Presumably Toronto will be requesting the funding to cover this from one level of government of the other. Toronto does have the power to toll roads; they could set up a toll on roads entering from 905 and only toll residents of Region of York in order to recoup the cost.

 

[Rainforest]

Not a big fan of this. Non-Torontonians should have to pay more. They dont pay Toronto taxes so there is no reason why they should be entitled to the same fare that Torontonians pay.

1) That would complicate the fare collection system substantially. Someone boarding at Vaughan Centre and traveling to Steeles West only pays the "905" fare. If he travels further south on the same train, how do you make sure that he pays the "416" fare as well? Have the train sit for 5 or 10 min at the Steeles West station, and send fare collectors through each car?

2) Double fare will apply to reverse commuters as well: someone living within 416 (and paying Toronto's taxes) but traveling to work at VCC will have to pay double fare.

A proper way to make the region contribute to TTC is to collect a region-wide transit tax, and distribute it in a way that compensates the TTC for serving non-Torontonians.

 

[ILuvTO]

I agree with you; but the deal is done. Presumably Toronto will be requesting the funding to cover this from one level of government of the other. Toronto does have the power to toll roads; they could set up a toll on roads entering from 905 and only toll residents of Region of York in order to recoup the cost.

Agreed that we need a zone based fare system. Surprised that Toronto did not push harder for this.

With that said, I agree with the above idea. But I wonder if it will negatively impact the number of 905'ers that make trips into the 416?

 

[ssiguy2]

Thanks . Tonight I am going to add a stop at Arrow Rd. and Finch though. As much as it frustrated me, it is one of those areas where having two stops per city block makes more sense than one, and the disconnected road network in the area also makes it hard to just have it stop at the ends (Highway 400 running between makes it hard to do just one in the middle).

I am removing the stop at Eglinton and Leslie though, as there is nothing at all in that intersection.

It is set to be a public map, so I am hoping that someone in power comes across it and considers implementong it.

That's the thing.........sometimes evry close stops are warranted and elsewhere stops can be much further apart but there needs to be a general guideline as to the "average" space stopping such as 1 per km.
I alasp agree with the comment about stopping should not ever be influenced by local coundillors. They often know little about transit but everything about getting themselves re-elected. They want to promise everyone a stop in front of their door regardless of the effect on the system as a whole.
Toronto's "balls are missing" because if they weren't they would tell the people along the route the truth.........if you want true rapid/mass transit them you are going to have to get use to walking to the station. They should be very firm about the number of stations they will allow and if they get flack them they should get some backbone {or grow some balls} and tell the residents that if you demand rapid transit then you must accept the fact that you will probably have to walk longer to get to your station. There is no such thing as rapid transit that stops every 2 to 3 blocks............that is very much local service.
Hell, a lot of local surface routes don't even stop that often as they skip stops where no one wants to get on or off while LRT POP will require stops at all stations.
As far as this "don't have enough money" story goes, that is a load of crap. I cannot, nor have even heard of, a city getting $8.2 billion for rapid transit from a senior level of government where the city itself doesn't have to chip in one nickel. EVERY city on this planet {including other ones in Ontario} would give their left nut to enjoy such largess. The reason Toronto doesn't have enough money for full subway expansion is because the feds and especially the people of Toronto refuse to pay for it.
Vancouver realized that you don't get "money for nothing and chicks for free" in the real world. They paid $500 million for the Canada Line and are putting $400 million towards the soon to be built new 11km Evergreen SKyTrain line which is only coming in at $130 million per Km including a 1 km tunnel.
Calgary, Edmonton, and even Ontario sister city Ottawa are all putting in their own money for their LRT expansion programs.
Maybe Toronto should look itself in the mirror and realize that they are the biggest block to mass transit expansion in Toronto and not senior levels of government. Toronto can bitch all it wants at Ottawa about not providing enough money for rapid/mass transit expansion but they are contributing $330 million towards the Sheppard Line which is exactly $330 million more than Toronto is willing to anti up.

 

[leopetr]

Here's a map which includes the recent census data vs new lrt lines, not sure if its been posted.
http://www.globalnews.ca/pages/topicNew.aspx?id=6442578395

They completely bungled the routing of the SRT extension on that map. They show it as going straight up McCowan north of Sheppard and then following a rail line. In reality, the funded portion would continue past McCowan along Progress to Markham and then terminate at Sheppard.

 

[leopetr]

Not a big fan of this. Non-Torontonians should have to pay more. They dont pay Toronto taxes so there is no reason why they should be entitled to the same fare that Torontonians pay.

Their employers pay Toronto taxes and businesses are taxed at a higher rate the residential.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Their employers pay Toronto taxes and businesses are taxed at a higher rate the residential.

Employers in Toronto who hire Torontonians also pay Toronto's taxes. That means that non-torontonians are still paying less then torontonians.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

I agree with you; but the deal is done. Presumably Toronto will be requesting the funding to cover this from one level of government of the other. Toronto does have the power to toll roads; they could set up a toll on roads entering from 905 and only toll residents of Region of York in order to recoup the cost.

But if the city doesn't want to implement toll roads and the Vaughan extension is too expensive to maintain we could always have trains turn around at York University station (just before it leaves Toronto) and send one train to Vaughan every 12 hours or so.

But seriously, I think that an inter-municipal border crossing where people pay tolls would only cause traffic delays on the Vaughan side of the border and hurt business here in Toronto. The TTC needs to implement some kind of zone based fare system.