Transit City Plan

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

@Rainforest, the thing about LRT's flexibility is that while Steve Munro touts LRT over ICTS for that reason the TTC's love of schedules over headways will always make them look at full segregation adoringly.

There are multiple options within the LRT technology choice on Eglinton. One option (which Steve Munro would prefer) is to run a short-turn "tunnel" service in addition to the long-haul Crosstown service. Those short-turns would provide additional capacity in the most used central part, as well as schedule stability.

Another proposal, from Karl Junkin: in the surface parts, run part of service as "local" and another part as "express". At "local" stops, local trains would pull to side tracks while expresses would run on the two central tracks. Thus, four tracks will be needed at each stop, but only two everywhere else. In the tunnel, both services would share same stops.

But even if TTC prefers SRT-style operation, speedy and fully grade-separate, for the whole length of Eglinton, it makes sense to use LRT type vehicles / gauge / power, for compatibility with the rest of the system. Basically, build an "LRT+" line on Eglinton, that is fully grade-separate, and has speed and capacity similar to ICTS.

Such "LRT+" will cost more than the originally planned LRT, and probably no less than ICTS. But there will be advantages of larger vehicle orders, common maintenance facilities, common station at Pearson (with Finch LRT and possibly Mississauga routes). Light rail is coming to GTA big time, even if some lines are upgraded to subways.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

1. A large majority of people who get on a sheppard bus at Don Mills station get off at Consumer's road. It's really too bad they have to get of the subway then wait for a bus to go another km or so.

2. There are a lot of technology jobs in markham, with a lot of young employees and interns that live in toronto. If the Sheppard subway was extended out to McCowan or so it would be a lot easier to get into markham

3. A lot of buses in Scarborough meet at Scarborough Town Centre. If STC is easy to get to, most of the rest of scarborough is (including U of T). Sheppard should terminate at STC, and so should the Bloor Danforth

4. Most people on the Steeles, Finch, Sheppard, and York Mills buses get off at major intersections. Better express buses (with dedicated lanes) could really improve east/west transit

5. It's about 20km from yonge to morningside. If LRT would be used on long routes like this it would only take one intersection being closed down to bring the whole line to a standstill.

6. I lived at morningside and sheppard. I think it would be ridiculous to have an LRT, or subway out that far.

I used to be in favor of Sheppard LRT rather than subway extension ... but after reading a number of comments here, think that for this particular route, a shorter subway extension might actually be more useful than a longer LRT, while not costing much more.

10. Yonge street north of Finch is absolutely full of buses. A lot of buses have a hard time getting in and out of the TTC and GO bus terminals

11. Extending the Yonge subway to Richmond Hill would eliminate most of these buses, and save a lot of people a transfer.

...
14. Often southbound trains on the Yonge Line are quite full by Sheppard Station. I imagine stations further down are quite congested

...
Some type of downtown relief line is probably needed, but I have less of an opinion of that.

Extension of Yonge subway to Steeles definitely makes sense, further to RH Centre probably does as well.

The problem though is the timing of this extension (part of MoveOntario) as well as other new "Yonge-feeders", against the downtown relief line (just being vaguely considered). Some of passengers will just switch from buses to the new subway and LRT routes, but a growth in the total numbers will definitely occur. Both Yonge and Spadina lines are crash-loaded south of Bloor already, can't imagine how they will operate if DRL is not build along with those new "feeders".

The SRT should be replaced with subway.

It might be too late for this otherwise good idea: the subway extension will take 8 - 10 years to complete, whereas present SRT vehicles go out of service in 2015.

The rest of the network should have some kind of bus rapid transit.. It could start out like viva, and then improve to me more like OC Transpo's transit way. There should be dedicated lanes where possible. Imagine the same buses viva uses, only painted a bright TTC red. The bus stops could be nicely paved, sheltered and landscaped, and the dedicated lane could be paved in a distinct way.

Express buses - yes. But I doubt that BRT (on dedicated lanes) has much use within 416, except for a couple of temporary routes like Finch to Steeles on Yonge, or YorkU to Downsview. Major bus routes are sardine-packed already during peak hours, while the frequency of buses approaches the theoretical limit for a single-file BRT line. Btw, we have HOV / bus / taxi lanes on many major streets already, not sure how much does that help.

VIVA's task was quite different, attracting riders in a very car-oriented region. Their "nice riding experience" approach was therefore quite successful. But TTC has no shortage of riders, most of the time it struggles to just get them from A to B somehow. So, capacity is a keyword within 416, and that means LRT, or subways for selected routes.

 

[Dan416]

I've been casually following this thread, but I haven't read every post, so I apologize in advance if all of this has been said. I've lived at Morningside & Sheppard, Don Mills & Sheppard, Leslie & Sheppard and now Yonge and Sheppard all in the past three years, so i thought I would throw in my two cents.

Travelling from yonge street to Eastern Scarborough is terribly slow. You can take a slow local bus like the Finch, or York mills all the way out, which takes well over an hour in rush hour times. Or you could take the sheppard subway, then take the 190, then take another bus from Scarborough Town centre. There is no easy way to do it. Here are some observations/thoughts about transit in the north east part of the city that I have.

1. A large majority of people who get on a sheppard bus at Don Mills station get off at Consumer's road. It's really too bad they have to get of the subway then wait for a bus to go another km or so.

2. There are a lot of technology jobs in markham, with a lot of young employees and interns that live in toronto. If the Sheppard subway was extended out to McCowan or so it would be a lot easier to get into markham

3. A lot of buses in Scarborough meet at Scarborough Town Centre. If STC is easy to get to, most of the rest of scarborough is (including U of T). Sheppard should terminate at STC, and so should the Bloor Danforth

4. Most people on the Steeles, Finch, Sheppard, and York Mills buses get off at major intersections. Better express buses (with dedicated lanes) could really improve east/west transit

5. It's about 20km from yonge to morningside. If LRT would be used on long routes like this it would only take one intersection being closed down to bring the whole line to a standstill.

6. I lived at morningside and sheppard. I think it would be ridiculous to have an LRT, or subway out that far.

7. You can have both express and local service at the same time. People complaining that people won't walk 500m to a subway station should realize that buses can provide local service on routes the subways cover.

8. Bus Rapid Transit would be cheaper, just as effective, wouldn't suffer from single points of failure, and could be implemented faster.

9. Some of the stations on the sheppard line are overly cavernous. We could probably be more cost effective in our subway building.

10. Yonge street north of Finch is absolutely full of buses. A lot of buses have a hard time getting in and out of the TTC and GO bus terminals

11. Extending the Yonge subway to Richmond Hill would eliminate most of these buses, and save a lot of people a transfer.

12. I don't see what the advantage is of LRT over a well designed BRT system.

13. It bothers me that LRT is the only mode being considered. in Waterloo the environmental assessment involved deciding the best mode of rapid transit. They didn't jump to the conclusion of "LRT" and then try to find reasons to support it

14. Often southbound trains on the Yonge Line are quite full by Sheppard Station. I imagine stations further down are quite congested

So I think we should extend sheppard East to Scarborough Town Centre, and West to connect with the University Spadina Line. The SRT should be replaced with subway. Yonge should probably go to Richmond Hill centre.

Some type of downtown relief line is probably needed, but I have less of an opinion of that. Same with Eglinton, I don't know much about it.

The rest of the network should have some kind of bus rapid transit.. It could start out like viva, and then improve to me more like OC Transpo's transit way. There should be dedicated lanes where possible. Imagine the same buses viva uses, only painted a bright TTC red. The bus stops could be nicely paved, sheltered and landscaped, and the dedicated lane could be paved in a distinct way.

It's good to hear the opinion of other Scarberians about what's best for the area. I think the general consensus among Scarberians is that both Bloor-Danforth and Sheppard should end at Scarborough Town, and that would be all the subway that Scarborough would need.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Mayor's transportation vision of Toronto must be stopped

You may have come across this letter in this weekend's community newspaper:

Mayor's transportation vision of Toronto must be stopped
July 22, 2008 10:37 AM

Mayor David Miller's transportation initiatives are going to impede vehicular traffic. I believe Miller is trying to create a situation where people will be forced out of their cars and onto public transportation.

Miller is no visionary. Miller is going to cause irretrievable harm to downtown Toronto. Miller, if allowed to go unchallenged, will cause problems that will cost future generations of Torontonians billions of dollars to correct.

Do people really believe Miller's reasons for tearing down the Gardiner, installing streetcars tracks on St. Clair Avenue and installing streetcars tracks on Sheppard Avenue?

Why isn't he being more forcefully challenged on his transportation strategy for Toronto?

He does not seem to have the courage or foresight to look into the future and build what is truly needed to turn Toronto into a world-class city. He only has to look to cities such as New York or Moscow for creative ideas to develop a system that will encourage people to take public transportation.

I supported Miller in the past; that turned out to be a disastrous mistake.

Would other people have voted for Miller if his election platform had been honest and forthright about his desire to tear down the Gardiner and put in streetcar tracks along St. Clair and Sheppard?

I know I would not have voted for him.

I hope people will step forward and help reveal the negative consequences of Miller's vision for Toronto before it is to late.

I think the Gardiner is a great tourist attraction. Where else can you get such a great view of Toronto skyline, especially at night with all the buildings lit up?

The city used to talk about the Gardiner restricting the sightline of the Toronto waterfront and then they went ahead and build a row of condos that certainly blocked the view of the Toronto waterfront.

If you disagree with Miller's transportation vision make sure you contact your local councillor; they want to be re-elected.

Jerry Derich

I did not vote for David Miller, but Transit City is a POSITIVE measure to reduce the dependence on the auto. (I don't think Transit City was his idea, anyway.)

What do you think?

 

[allabootmatt]

Hmmm...I dunno if we should be taking transit tips from someone who didn't know that there have been streetcar tracks on St. Clair for ±100 years....

 

[smuncky]

I think the Gardiner is a great tourist attraction.

that's what's wrong with our tourism campaign. too much cn tower and not enough gardiner.

 

[toraerach]

that's what's wrong with our tourism campaign. too much cn tower and not enough gardiner.

"Quick honey! Grab the camera...it's the f**king Gardiner!!"

Replace the Gardiner with a small elevated pedestrian walkway with a bike path. That would keep the view intact (because apparently that's what drives our tourism industry) and would make the waterfront more appealing.

 

[isittimetomoveyet]

You may have come across this letter in this weekend's community newspaper:



I did not vote for David Miller, but Transit City is a POSITIVE measure to reduce the dependence on the auto. (I don't think Transit City was his idea, anyway.)

What do you think?

Absolutely, its positive. Flawed to an extent, but at the end of the day its very positive. My only hope is that they would look at incorporating subways, where necessary.

 

[Dichotomy]

Semantics, my friends. I am sure the author knew that St. Clair has had a streetcar for 100+ years.
You may think he is amusing, but for many, many people their first impression of Toronto (either in their car or on an airport express bus) is from the Gardiner. The view from the top of the 427 ramp is stunning. Some of my earliest impressions of the city were from the top of that ramp with my father at the wheel. The tour buses from Niagara do take that route: what must they think as they sit in traffic on the QE all the way from Oakville, practically?
Pretty much all tourist exit interviews list 'traffic' as their 2nd or rd 'negative' about Toronto.

I know: let's all cycle from the airport with our 8 bags of luggage and 3 kids in tow.

The author is right: St. Clair and the Gardiner are the ONLY E-W routes that still function. Since St. Clair is being strangled, that leaves the Gardiner, boys and girls.

You can't have it both ways. If you forcibly ban the car from downtown (which is effectively what IS happening), then the business and tourists will leave, too. As I have preached on other forums for years now, much of the job losses in our economy have been masked by the increase in what I call 'fake' jobs (banking, investment - you know, the kind that don't really produce anything). Now that many of those jobs are being off-shored or the asset-backed scams are coming home to roost, we will soon see that the emperor has no clothes.

 

[Chuck]

I actually think the subway will easily be able to absorb the extra trips generated by a northward extension to Richmond Hill. The reasons are as follows:

-The Spadina subway will already have been built, which will take many people from Finch and Steeles buses off of the Yonge line.

-Signal improvements and new vehicles will increase capacity by possibly 10% or more.

Most importantly:

-Those who work or attend school south of Bloor are likely already using transit. A northward extension won't necessarily generate that many new trips south of Bloor.

-I wouldn't be surprised if more people from York Region work in midtown (St. Clair, Eglinton, and NYCC combined), than right downtown. Probably only 1 in 10 of the new riders will still be on the subway at Bloor.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I actually think the subway will easily be able to absorb the extra trips generated by a northward extension to Richmond Hill. The reasons are as follows:

-The Spadina subway will already have been built, which will take many people from Finch and Steeles buses off of the Yonge line.

-Signal improvements and new vehicles will increase capacity by possibly 10% or more.

Most importantly:

-Those who work or attend school south of Bloor are likely already using transit. A northward extension won't necessarily generate that many new trips south of Bloor.

-I wouldn't be surprised if more people from York Region work in midtown (St. Clair, Eglinton, and NYCC combined), than right downtown. Probably only 1 in 10 of the new riders will still be on the subway at Bloor.

The Spadina extension would take 20,000 rides a day off Yonge, maybe more (unless they all transfer back onto it via St. George & Bloor...gulp). It's not just Finch and Steeles buses; the new park'n'ride lots will divert some drivers who go to Finch. Even minor GO improvements on the three eastern GO lines (like adding only 2 or 3 more trains per day to Stouffville or Richmond Hill) could take thousands more riders off...and, as Chuck says, new transit users are probably more likely to be attracted to GO if they work downtown.

Condos and redevelopment along the extension will totally swamp the Yonge, but only in the long term, and in the long term there will hopefully be other new lines ready for use and vastly improved GO lines. Over time, the Yonge line will see a steadily increasing percentage of its riders walking into stations, not transferring from buses.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Shhh! I hope the TTC's firewall prevents them from seeing this:

NYC Transit planning to experiment with seatless subway cars at rush hour

Click on this link to read about it:

It will be standing room only - literally - when NYC Transit runs some subway cars without any seats, hoping to squeeze more riders inside.

The agency is planning a pilot program featuring a train with flipup seats in four of 10 cars.

The flipup seats will be locked in the up position during rush hours, meaning everyone inside the car will have to stand, the Daily News has learned.

"Each car will be able to carry more people," NYC Transit President Howard Roberts said of the no-sitting strategy. "It means more capacity. It gives the ability to pick up more people, and have fewer people left on the platform waiting for the next train."

After rush hours, workers will unlock the flipup seats for riders to use, Roberts said.

The pilot program, hatched by Roberts and his senior vice president of subways, Steven Fiel, is expected to start in five to seven months, when the first retrofitted train arrives.

Subway bosses have not decided which line will get the no-seat cars - or when they might go into wider use.

Some riders said they would welcome the plan with open arms - because 18% more passengers would be able to get inside.

"Most people stand anyway," said Kathleen Sia, 19, a college student from Washington Heights. "I'd rather be on time than be comfortable."

"It's totally worth it," added John Holton, 37, of the upper West Side. "I am on the train to get somewhere, not to sit around."

But not everyone was on board.

"I understand why they are doing it, but I don't think it will be popular with riders," said Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign.

The biggest complaints may come from riders who board a near-empty train at the first stops, only to find they have to stand, Russianoff predicted.

The move comes as the agency tries to grapple with several challenging realities.

On several lines, the agency can't run more trains per hour safely because of the current signal system's limitations.

The agency faces huge budget gaps and long-term solutions like upgraded signal and communications systems are extremely expensive.

Ridership continues to rise - along with delays spawned by frustrated riders trying to squeeze into packed trains.

The tactic of having some cars without seating during peak travel times has been used on some aboveground trains in Tokyo since 1990, but is not in use in the United States.

 

[nfitz]

The author is right: St. Clair and the Gardiner are the ONLY E-W routes that still function.

As I use the Gardiner in rush-hour about once a week to get from East Toronto to Kitchener, I'd disagree that it still functions ... certainly in the PM rush.

Though I'm glad to hear that St. Clair is still functioning despite having the dedicated track put in - hopefully that will put an end to the naysayers!

 

[Whoaccio]

As I have preached on other forums for years now, much of the job losses in our economy have been masked by the increase in what I call 'fake' jobs (banking, investment - you know, the kind that don't really produce anything). Now that many of those jobs are being off-shored or the asset-backed scams are coming home to roost, we will soon see that the emperor has no clothes.

Banking and investment are real jobs. That neo-Luddites cannot appreciate the significance of something such as capital or investment assistance is indicative of their lack of knowledge. In the 19th century, people such as yourself predicted that the economy was bound to implode as manufacturing overtook agriculture as the primary economic activity. How could a society possibly sustain itself when less than 50% of it's economic profile was agriculture? Now agriculture makes up ~2% of our economy and manufacturing is in the same stage as agriculture was 100 years ago. It's a sunset industry.

Toronto could build 6 lane urban arterials up the ying yang and elect Milton Friedman as mayor, industrial jobs are never, ever (under any circumstances) coming back to the downtown core. There is no one reason why, but globalization, higher land values, high wages and demographic changes would all place well before anything the City of Toronto even has a say over. Toronto needs to figure out what it can compete in (finance, education, retail, tourism, ect...) and focus on that. Ruining what we do have a decent shot at succeeding in to placate some disgruntled blue collar workers is not a good economic strategy.

 

[jn_12]

You can't have it both ways. If you forcibly ban the car from downtown (which is effectively what IS happening), then the business and tourists will leave, too.

Tourists will leave?

"Honey, let's go to Toronto for the weekend!"
"No way Jose, I can't drive down Spadina, so we're not going anywhere!"

ya that makes sense.
Here's the thing, I've worked for the city and province in tourism and people that visit Toronto don't care whether they can drive from the CN Tower to the ROM. Our downtown is very compact and a large percentage of the attractions are within a walkable distance of eachother. Tourists know that and I don't think I ever once spoke to one who had complaints about traffic. You know why? Tourists like to experience new things. Riding the subway or the streetcar is like an adventure for them. It's a fantastic opportunity to see the city in a whole other way and they jump at it.

You also make it sound like tourism and driving go hand in hand. Well, try driving in Paris or London as a foreigner. You'd be hard pressed to find a tourist doing that, and those two cities are doing quite well for themselves. Also, don't you think people know about traffic? They tend to come from places that have traffic too. it's not something that's unique to Toronto.