Transit City Plan

[kEiThZ]

I'd think if there were a lot of special conditions in the contract to cancel it, then Bombardier would have had to have revealed that, or else they would be risking penalties for misinforming shareholders.

I never said there was a special clause or that Bombardier would not charge a penalty, just that I am sure Metrolinx has left themselves a big enough space to manoeuvre if necessary and make sure the penalty is not massive.

What? This is the same Bombardier that is currently suing the STM in Montlreal (the Montreal Metro) over plans to cancel and retender their $1.2 billion order for 340 subway cars! Bombardier would quite definitely put up a fight ... unless perhaps it was part of a deal to replace by an equivalent $ order (for subway cars or ALRT cars) - which would then not be tendered, and would risk the kind of lawsuits we've seen in Montreal recently from other vendors when large contracts haven't been tendered.

There's a difference in canning a part of an order (48 LRVs), which could in turn be replaced by an order for more Toronto Rockets or be purchased later as part of more LRT expansion, and outright cancelling and re-bidding an order for 340 subway cars.

Last time I checked, the frontrunner was Ford; and he hasn't got any of these in his plan!

He hasn't announced his transit plan AFAIK, so we don't know what he does or does not have in his plan.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Imagine if the Sheppard East LRT proves to be too slow and results in no change or an increase the number of cars on the road? I would laugh so hard

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Imagine if the Sheppard East LRT proves to be too slow and results in no change or an increase the number of cars on the road? I would laugh so hard

That's exactly what's going to happen. No cars will be taken off the road by replacing the buses and an expansion of Avenue designations will permit more developments that add more cars. This is common knowledge.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

That's exactly what's going to happen. No cars will be taken off the road by replacing the buses and an expansion of Avenue designations will permit more developments that add more cars. This is common knowledge.

Nice contradiction there.

*applauds*

 

[Rainforest]

Bombardier says 280 passengers in the press release.

Compare to the new Toronto Rocket subway cars. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Rocket_(Toronto_subway_car) :

Length: 140 m (per train) / 6 = 23.3 m
Width: 3.13 m
Capacity: 1100 (per train) / 6 = 183 passengers

An LRV car and a T35A08 car will have almost same footprint: the former, 28 x 2.65 = 74.2 sq. m.; the latter, 23.3 x 3.13 = 72.9 sq. m. Moreover, each LRV car will have two cabins at each end, which is probably unnecessary in the perm-married T35A08 subway 6-car sets. And yet, LRV is somehow expected to carry 1.5 times more passengers.

I wonder if the 280 passengers figure in Bombardier 's press release applies to a two-car set, rather than a single light rail car.

 

[Rainforest]

The crush capacity of a CLRV has previously been reported as 132. This vehicle will be more than twice as long than a CLRV. 280 under crush conditions doesn't seem completely out of line.

I found a discussion on streetcar and subway car capacities here: http://stevemunro.ca/?p=2380 :

CLRV: design capacity - 74, crush load - not mentioned
ALRV: design capacity - 108, crush load - 150
Subway car: design capacity - 167, crush load - 200

Assuming the design-to-crushload ratio for CLRV and ALRV is same, crush load max for CLRV should be around 103, not 132.

 

[Rainforest]

That's exactly what's going to happen. No cars will be taken off the road by replacing the buses and an expansion of Avenue designations will permit more developments that add more cars. This is common knowledge.

Nice contradiction there.

*applauds*

Scarberian's assumption may or may not materialize, but it has no internal contradiction. Avenue designation means changes in zoning by-laws that permit higher-density development, and that will lead to higher demand for all transportation modes - whether the public transit is adequate or not.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Nice contradiction there.

*applauds*

What contradiction? We know that ridership won't go up and that drivers won't get out of their cars and that opening the backyards and strip malls and industrial land east of Agincourt up to development can only add cars (even if only a small amount of redevelopment actually occurs). We've always known this. By the way, the Sheppard bus will remain east of wherever the LRT ends (down to Port Union) and they may not retain the 190, and buses will continue to run on Sheppard east of Don Mills, so the whole corridor's ridership won't even be absorbed onto the LRT and some rides may be lost. Perhaps a thousand condo units and cafes will get built on the backyards fronting Sheppard in Malvern, generating a few hundred transit trips, some of which made on Sheppard, but if you think that adding 500 or 1000 rides after spending over a billion dollars is proof of anything that supports your lame oneliners in any conceivable way, you're out to lunch.

Nice to see your tradition of self-proclaimed "quality" posts continue.

 

[yyzhyd]

Metrolinx buys 182 streetcars for Transit City

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/823213--metrolinx-buys-182-streetcars-for-transit-city?bn=1

"Metrolinx buys 182 streetcars for Transit City

Metrolinx has agreed to buy 182 Euro-style streetcars from Bombardier to furnish Toronto’s new Transit City light rail lines on Sheppard, Eglinton, Finch and the Scarborough Rapid Transit system.

The $770 million deal being announced Monday afternoon by Ontario Transportation Minister Kathleen Wynne and Metrolinx CEO Rob Prichard, exercises an option in the TTC’s contract with Bombardier to build 204 replacement cars for the city’s existing 11 routes..."

 

[nfitz]

I found a discussion on streetcar and subway car capacities here: http://stevemunro.ca/?p=2380 :

CLRV: design capacity - 74, crush load - not mentioned
ALRV: design capacity - 108, crush load - 150
Subway car: design capacity - 167, crush load - 200

I'm not sure why Steve used those numbers. But in a presentation on December 18, 2007 by TTC's Superintendent of Streetcar Engineering, they identified that the CLRV crush load was 132 and the ALRV crush load was 205, with new LRV (which hadn't been selected at that point) as approximately 260.

 

[SlickFranky]

What contradiction? We know that ridership won't go up and that drivers won't get out of their cars ...

How do we 'know that'? Rail bias aside, people do generally appreciate a faster, more reliable, more comfortable trip. Whether or not that is offset by increased development is another matter altogether.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

How do we 'know that'? Rail bias aside, people do generally appreciate a faster, more reliable, more comfortable trip. Whether or not that is offset by increased development is another matter altogether.

We know that because we live in the real world and don't take claims in promotional material at face value.

 

[Justin10000]

Compare to the new Toronto Rocket subway cars. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Rocket_(Toronto_subway_car) :

Length: 140 m (per train) / 6 = 23.3 m
Width: 3.13 m
Capacity: 1100 (per train) / 6 = 183 passengers

An LRV car and a T35A08 car will have almost same footprint: the former, 28 x 2.65 = 74.2 sq. m.; the latter, 23.3 x 3.13 = 72.9 sq. m. Moreover, each LRV car will have two cabins at each end, which is probably unnecessary in the perm-married T35A08 subway 6-car sets. And yet, LRV is somehow expected to carry 1.5 times more passengers.

I wonder if the 280 passengers figure in Bombardier 's press release applies to a two-car set, rather than a single light rail car.

Like Niftz siad, 280 passengers is probably the number of passengers each LRV will be able to carry at crush. I checked the Bombardier technical data, and LRVs for Istanbul can carry 272 passengers at 6 persons per metre squared.
Croydon Tramlink's LRV have a capacity of 208 passengers at 4 persons per metre squared.
I believe a TC LRV will have at least a capacity of 200 passengers, depending on the seating arrangement.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

Scarberian's assumption may or may not materialize, but it has no internal contradiction. Avenue designation means changes in zoning by-laws that permit higher-density development, and that will lead to higher demand for all transportation modes - whether the public transit is adequate or not.

Why are you defending him?

 

[Rainforest]

Why are you defending him?

1) Why not?

2) Your statement was inaccurate IMO, so I posted an objection.