Transit City Comeback?

[gweed123]

It depends which way is going, doesn't it. Why do we think there are all of these people south of the 401 at Scarborough Centre that want to head to downtown North York anyway? With the Eglinton line going completely underground, the travel time to Yonge/Eglinton from Scarborough Centre wiill be about the same as to Yonge/Sheppard.

More people want to get from STC to NYCC than want to get from STC to Morningside & Sheppard, that's for sure. That's pretty much the only scenario in which a trip from STC to a point on Sheppard WOULDN'T be a back-track.

Yet the poor folks in Malvern are still completely screwed ... being forced to take painfully slow buses over the 401 to get to Scarborough Centre ... to catch either the Sheppard or Eglinton lines. Or west on Sheppard to Kennedy/Agincourt to catch the subway there.

I'm going to be writing a proposal to Ford to show that the federal funds for the SELRT can be spent on upgrading bus service along Sheppard and McCowan to have dedicated curbside lanes, for under $330 million. I'm going to specifically market it as a "temporary solution" until the subway gets built. How long temporary is, well we'll see, haha.

However ssiguys point was that Transit City contained "No connection from Sheppard directly to STC". Clearly this is 100% wrong.

I think he was implying a transferless ride. That's what I think of when I think "direct connection". People on the Bloor line do not have a direct connection to downtown, but people on YUS do.

Given the 1-lane state of Jarvis street south of Queen these days (which BTW still doesn't have bike lanes) ... and that the eastbound Gardiner in AM rush from York to Richmond runs at full speed ... may actually be the fastest way!

Fastest, but hardly the most direct . That's almost the equivalent of making 3 right turns instead of just making a left, haha.

 

[nfitz]

More people want to get from STC to NYCC than want to get from STC to Morningside & Sheppard, that's for sure.

What's Morningside and Sheppard got to do with it anymore than anywhere else? The cancelled SRT extension went to near Markham and Sheppard - with the next (Phase 2) stop being Malvern Town Centre. I'd think that in AM rush, more people want to go from here to the STC+the subway (Danforth, Eglinton, Yonge south of Eglinton) than they do want to go to Yonge/Sheppard and beyond.

I'm going to be writing a proposal to Ford to show that the federal funds for the SELRT can be spent on upgrading bus service along Sheppard and McCowan to have dedicated curbside lanes, for under $330 million. I'm going to specifically market it as a "temporary solution" until the subway gets built. How long temporary is, well we'll see, haha.

Good luck! Might be worth raising during the EA process if he ignores it.

I think he was implying a transferless ride. That's what I think of when I think "direct connection".

And yet TC did have a direct transferless connection to Sheppard.

People on the Bloor line do not have a direct connection to downtown, but people on YUS do.

Well that solves the mystery of why I don't see anyone in either Yonge/Bloor or St. George stations during rush-hour!

 

[gweed123]

What's Morningside and Sheppard got to do with it anymore than anywhere else? The cancelled SRT extension went to near Markham and Sheppard - with the next (Phase 2) stop being Malvern Town Centre. I'd think that in AM rush, more people want to go from here to the STC+the subway (Danforth, Eglinton, Yonge south of Eglinton) than they do want to go to Yonge/Sheppard and beyond.

I was just using that as an example of a destination that's east of the SLRT/SELRT transfer point. I'm saying that the amount of destinations west of the transfer point far exceed east of the transfer point, so for the majority of people at STC wanting to reach a destination along Sheppard, the vast majority of them would be backtracking in order to transfer. A line that went west from STC and then north to Sheppard would serve these riders much better than a line going east and then north. That's all I'm saying.

Good luck! Might be worth raising during the EA process if he ignores it.

Thanks. I'm going to try and target it specifically to his favouring of buses over streetcars (not accurate in the BRT vs LRT context, but it's Ford I'm targetting this to), the 'temporary' nature of the BRT, the fact that the lanes can be converted to general traffic once the subway is open underneath (increase in road capacity in the long term, big + in his mind), and the fact that it would be politically unfavourable to let the $330 million in federal funding expire, and make the point that BRT is the only thing that can be under construction and/or completed by 2014. Anything else I should add? Basically I'm trying to frame as why it's good for HIM, and not necessarily why it's good planning principles. I know he doesn't care about good planning.

And yet TC did have a direct transferless connection to Sheppard.

But not from Sheppard to STC.

Well that solves the mystery of why I don't see anyone in either Yonge/Bloor or St. George stations during rush-hour!

A) For people travelling from the west or east, transferring at those two stations is the only game in town.
B) Unless you're at Bay station, transferring at B-Y or St. George isn't backtracking.

 

[ssiguy2]

When I said Sheppard subway to STC I thought it was understood at direct line.
Yes TC has ROW and light priority {which is pretty useless with constant left hand turns and station stops at opposit sides of the road.
If Toronto wanted a more reliable, somewhat faster local system then TC was fine but it was not rapid/mass transit in any stretch of the imagination. It was also completely disjointed and provided no relief for the downtown users. Torontonians spoke loudly in the last election.........they want true mass/rapid transit to get where they want to go fast and affordably and knew that TC didn't deliver and voted accordingly.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Ever so slowly, pieces of the Transit City lines have been resurrected. First, there was the Eglinton Crosstown. Then there was Finch West and Sheppard West. Now the Scarborough-Malvern LRT may return, as an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown.

The Scarborough RT looks like it will be covered by, not one, but two rapid transit lines. The 2 Bloor-Danforth subway will be extended by one station to the Scarborough Town Centre. In addition, parts of the current RT right-of-way could be reused as a SmartTrack line, with stations at Kennedy, Lawrence, and Ellesmere. Okay, they loose a couple of stations, but they gain additional stations north of Ellesmere using SmartTrack.

There is leaves Don Mills. However, the Downtown Relief Line (aka Yonge Relief Line) may resurrect Don Mills, either as an LRT extension of the DRL, a continuation of the DRL, or some other form of rapid transit.

That leaves us with Jane and the Lakeshore West lines.

 

[Hopkins123]

Ever so slowly, pieces of the Transit City lines have been resurrected. First, there was the Eglinton Crosstown. Then there was Finch West and Sheppard West. Now the Scarborough-Malvern LRT may return, as an extension of the Eglinton Crosstown.

The Scarborough RT looks like it will be covered by, not one, but two rapid transit lines. The 2 Bloor-Danforth subway will be extended by one station to the Scarborough Town Centre. In addition, parts of the current RT right-of-way could be reused as a SmartTrack line, with stations at Kennedy, Lawrence, and Ellesmere. Okay, they loose a couple of stations, but they gain additional stations north of Ellesmere using SmartTrack.

There is leaves Don Mills. However, the Downtown Relief Line (aka Yonge Relief Line) may resurrect Don Mills, either as an LRT extension of the DRL, a continuation of the DRL, or some other form of rapid transit.

That leaves us with Jane and the Lakeshore West lines.

Is Jane LRT even necessary now? Jane will be intercepted by rapid transit at Steeles (Pioneer Village), Finch, potentially where the Georgetown corrdior crosses Jane, and Eglinton. It would make more sense to extend the 512 to Jane then south to Bloor. Waterfront West is also redundant if SmartTrack/GO RER has stops in CityPlace and Liberty Village.

 

[Canadian Chocho]

Not sure Waterfront West LRT would be completely redundant, we still have a lot of development coming to Humber Bay Shores and Lakeshore Blvd West is one of the city's highlighted Avenues.

Totally not based on any research or expert knowledge from my part, but I wonder if it would be worth looking into DRL West turning into what WWLRT is west of Roncesvalles given that Smarttrack is going up to Dundas West (and later Mt. Dennis) anyway. Probably overkill but its so inexplicably satisfying connecting things.

 

[muller877]

Is Jane LRT even necessary now? Jane will be intercepted by rapid transit at Steeles (Pioneer Village), Finch, potentially where the Georgetown corrdior crosses Jane, and Eglinton. It would make more sense to extend the 512 to Jane then south to Bloor. Waterfront West is also redundant if SmartTrack/GO RER has stops in CityPlace and Liberty Village.

Jane LRT is probably even more necessary. Pioneer, Finch and Eglinton will push the 35 bus users onto the #1 subway (either University or Yonge) which will increase the usage of the line which is already at capacity. By creating a Jane LRT you create the only N-S connection in the west and can move these riders either back to the Bloor line or a Smarttrack line (Milton or Georgetown lines).

And this assumes they are all heading towards downtown. Jane can also be a good N-S connection for those people who live west of the subway lines and want to get to 'Sauga. All the lines out west are focused on getting people downtown but we need an integrated network and this can interconnect a lot of lines and destinations.

EDIT - it will also serve a lot of high-priority neighbourhoods which is an important factor that many forgot.

 

[ehlow]

The fact that this "Crosstown east" is an extension of the Eglinton LRT rather than it's own line (Scarborough Malvern LRT) is a pretty significant difference from the Transit City version. Also not going up to Sheppard.

Overall I like the current selection of the Transit City lines, fully Eglinton LRT with Phase 1 & 2, Scar-Malvern LRT as an extension of Eglinton, forming one extremely long line, as well as Finch West LRT.

Hopefully since the part that takes the longest to complete, the Eglinton tunnel, has been under construction for years means all the above, which could be looked at as 4 projects with 3 being combined, all finish in the early 2020's resulting in a massive expansion of Toronto's transit network.

 

[Rainforest]

Miller's Transit City is almost 8 years old now. It had many worthy parts but it should not be treated as a gospel today.

Some of its components have become less relevant, while some projects not included in the 2008 plan may in fact offer greater bang for the buck in the present context.

Jane LRT is still relevant, but as a branch of Eglinton LRT rather than a separate line. Between Eglinton and Steeles, it will serve areas of high density and some priority neighborhoods. But south of Eglinton, there is not much density and no priority neighborhoods, and the street is narrow making the LRT quite expensive to build.

I doubt that a Jane line to Bloor would be very effective as one more north-south trunk. Unless you live directly on Jane, it will be faster to travel from the north towards Kipling Stn / Mississauga using Spadina subway + BD rather than Jane LRT + BD.

Waterfront West line is pretty much dead in its original form, due to the high cost of the downtown section and the competition from the Lakeshore West RER.

However, WWLRT might resurrect in a more local form, running between the Long Branch terminal and a SmartTrack or DRL station in the Queen / Dufferin / King area.

At the same time, a number of LRT lines not included in the 2008 plan definitely deserve consideration:
- Waterfront East
- Finch East
- Malvern Centre LRT, that would connect Malvern to the future BD subway terminus at Scarborough Centre

 

[Towered]

Jane LRT is probably even more necessary. Pioneer, Finch and Eglinton will push the 35 bus users onto the #1 subway (either University or Yonge) which will increase the usage of the line which is already at capacity. By creating a Jane LRT you create the only N-S connection in the west and can move these riders either back to the Bloor line or a Smarttrack line (Milton or Georgetown lines).

And this assumes they are all heading towards downtown. Jane can also be a good N-S connection for those people who live west of the subway lines and want to get to 'Sauga. All the lines out west are focused on getting people downtown but we need an integrated network and this can interconnect a lot of lines and destinations.

Jane is not really west end though, and this is where a north-south LRT in Etobicoke becomes essential. Kipling or Islington would be good. Maybe even an extension of the Finch West LRT south in the 27/427 corridor to the subway could work.

 

[ssiguy2]

sTC was politics 101 by Miller. He knew he had all the left-wing votes in the downtown core but needed more suburban ones and hence the suburbs got transit improvements and the entire inner city was left hollow even though it's the fastest growing part of the city.

This is a far more cohesive system as opposed to TC which was a bunch of disjointed LRT lines. TC had so many disconnected lines that it was user unfriendly due to the endless transfers. These are long fluid lines that make transit faster and more pleasant. TC has Eglinton/Malvern as different lines so you would have to transfer at Kennedy even though you were travelling on the same technology, on the same street, in the same direction.............lunacy.

It also totally neglected the city itself despite being incredibly congested and very fast growing. He childish thought more streetcars would solve the problem just as naively Chow thought the same thing about just adding more buses. TC was more about building "complete streets" than moving people.

Miller was as ideological about transit as Ford was. Miller's LRT or nothing mantra changed to Ford's subways or nothing. There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" when it comes to transit and neither Miller nor Ford understood that but Tory does.

Miller also showed absolutely no flexibility in his plan. It had many good components but the idea of even questioning some of it's many shortcomings was met with distain from the mayor's office and people who did not agree with his ideas down to the letter were childishly named "anti-transit". Tory has proven himself to be open minded about transit and willing to admit when he made a poor decision and is willing to have it changed if the money would be better spent elsewhere or would better serve the travelling public

Miller thought he was a transit expert and hence questioning any part of TC was met with dirision and even outright contempt. Tory more conciliatory tone, less ideological nature, and more consensus oriented governance has brought about a vastly superior and publically received plan.

 

[Jonny5]

This is a far more cohesive system as opposed to TC which was a bunch of disjointed LRT lines. TC had so many disconnected lines that it was user unfriendly due to the endless transfers. These are long fluid lines that make transit faster and more pleasant. TC has Eglinton/Malvern as different lines so you would have to transfer at Kennedy even though you were travelling on the same technology, on the same street, in the same direction.............lunacy.

"So many disjointed and disonnected lines", yet they were all connected and were an actual network. Your analysis of it is what is lunacy. Ignoring that the planners are already whispering a transfer will likely be required at Kennedy on the "crosstown", the concept that there is a magical service line connecting all points seamlessly is the exact delusion that has destroyed planning here for decades.

It also totally neglected the city itself despite being incredibly congested and very fast growing. He childish thought more streetcars would solve the problem just as naively Chow thought the same thing about just adding more buses. TC was more about building "complete streets" than moving people.

Childish is your analysis. Miller cobbled together a plan with the funds he had. "What does "neglected the city" even mean? Chow's bus plan was about implementing service improvement immediately. Reversing Ford's cuts. It was never purported to be more than that.

sTC was politics 101 by Miller. He knew he had all the left-wing votes in the downtown core but needed more suburban ones and hence the suburbs got transit improvements and the entire inner city was left hollow even though it's the fastest growing part of the city.

This is a far more cohesive system as opposed to TC which was a bunch of disjointed LRT lines. TC had so many disconnected lines that it was user unfriendly due to the endless transfers. These are long fluid lines that make transit faster and more pleasant. TC has Eglinton/Malvern as different lines so you would have to transfer at Kennedy even though you were travelling on the same technology, on the same street, in the same direction.............lunacy.

It also totally neglected the city itself despite being incredibly congested and very fast growing. He childish thought more streetcars would solve the problem just as naively Chow thought the same thing about just adding more buses. TC was more about building "complete streets" than moving people.

Miller was as ideological about transit as Ford was. Miller's LRT or nothing mantra changed to Ford's subways or nothing. There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" when it comes to transit and neither Miller nor Ford understood that but Tory does.

Miller also showed absolutely no flexibility in his plan. It had many good components but the idea of even questioning some of it's many shortcomings was met with distain from the mayor's office and people who did not agree with his ideas down to the letter were childishly named "anti-transit". Tory has proven himself to be open minded about transit and willing to admit when he made a poor decision and is willing to have it changed if the money would be better spent elsewhere or would better serve the travelling public

Miller thought he was a transit expert and hence questioning any part of TC was met with dirision and even outright contempt. Tory more conciliatory tone, less ideological nature, and more consensus oriented governance has brought about a vastly superior and publically received plan.

Miller was as ideological about transit as Ford was. Miller's LRT or nothing mantra changed to Ford's subways or nothing. There is no such thing as a "one size fits all" when it comes to transit and neither Miller nor Ford understood that but Tory does.

Miller also showed absolutely no flexibility in his plan. It had many good components but the idea of even questioning some of it's many shortcomings was met with distain from the mayor's office and people who did not agree with his ideas down to the letter were childishly named "anti-transit". Tory has proven himself to be open minded about transit and willing to admit when he made a poor decision and is willing to have it changed if the money would be better spent elsewhere or would better serve the travelling public

Miller thought he was a transit expert and hence questioning any part of TC was met with dirision and even outright contempt. Tory more conciliatory tone, less ideological nature, and more consensus oriented governance has brought about a vastly superior and publically received plan.

Meanwhile, back in reality, where Miller was pro-subway, revised Trasit city multiple times, and demonstrated more flexibility than any mayor on the trasit file for decades; John Tory had to be told by the province to go away so they could actually build a real transit system and not toy trains.

Please stop humiliating yourself with this very poorly informed nonsense.

John Tory knew from day one his Smart Track plan was completely unworkable. He campaigned on an unworkable, impossible plan. He then wasted an entire year denying this. That is a massive failure of leadership. It was cowardice. He looks nothing more today than a bumbling fool who need mommy and daddy to fix his disastrous mess.

 

[jcam]

Jane is not really west end though, and this is where a north-south LRT in Etobicoke becomes essential. Kipling or Islington would be good. Maybe even an extension of the Finch West LRT south in the 27/427 corridor to the subway could work.

You could extend it south on Renforth, across Rathburn, then south along one of the 'Malls; to terminate a Line 2 extension to Honeydale (East Mall) or Sherway (West Mall). If you really wanted to be ambituous, continue the line south along Brown's line to connect to Long Branch and Lakeshore West.

 

[kEiThZ]

"So many disjointed and disonnected lines", yet they were all connected and were an actual network.

If the pro-subway side proposed a bunch of lines that all connected, nobody would think there was any point either. There were flaws in Transit City. Eglinton and Sheppard were glaring examples. As was Finch East. To say the plan was a network so all flaws are excused is ideological blindness, that gives rise to equally ideologically blind opposition. That Miller fans still don't see that today is incredible.

Miller cobbled together a plan with the funds he had.

Funds he had? You can't be serious. He pitched a $6 billion plan that ballooned to $18 billion. People lambasted Ford for his underestimation of costs on the Scarborough subway. How come Miller is exempt from similar scrutiny?

"
Meanwhile, back in reality, where Miller was pro-subway, revised Trasit city multiple times, and demonstrated more flexibility than any mayor on the trasit file for decades; John Tory had to be told by the province to go away so they could actually build a real transit system and not toy trains.

Pro-subway? What subway did Miller propose other than the one Sorbara imposed on him? He couldn't even propose a short Sheppard extension to Agincourt.

"
John Tory knew from day one his Smart Track plan was completely unworkable. He campaigned on an unworkable, impossible plan. He then wasted an entire year denying this. That is a massive failure of leadership. It was cowardice. He looks nothing more today than a bumbling fool who need mommy and daddy to fix his disastrous mess.

What should we say about Miller proposing a plan that he likely knew was going to cost 300% more and which resulted in nothing getting built during his watch?

Harsh as I am. There's a lot in Transit City to like. But it's sheer ignorance to think Miller was infallible or that he wasn't politicking at all with Transit City. Had he been up front about the whole cost of Transit City, the debate would have been entirely different. John Tory's Smart Track proposal, in fact, has a closer cost estimate to reality than Transit City did when first proposed. That's nuts. What's crazier now is insisting that we stick to Transit City instead of going corridor by corridor and asking where LRT, BRT or subway makes more sense. For example, I think it's a valid debate whether we should do anything more on Sheppard East, or build that northern crosstown on Finch entirely.