News   Apr 25, 2024
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News   Apr 25, 2024
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News   Apr 25, 2024
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Tower Renewal Program: apartment buildings to receive energy retrofit

There's nothing "European" about urban mixed use shopping streets. There are thousands of them in North America, and they thrive in "cold as hell" Toronto and colder cities around the world.

Really? How many suburban examples -and we are talking about the 'burbs here- can you list of intimate open air boulevards in North America? If they were "thriving" in Toronto, we wouldn't be having the discussion about how to foster them in the 'burbs (because, logically, they would already be there). Finch & Kipling won't look like the stereotypical euro street anytime in the near future. It would be more realistic for the Finch & Kipling's of Toronto to model themselves on the public housing estates in Asia, which make extensive use of the mall (in part, because it is warm and humid as hell and you can't a/c the street).
 
But practically speaking, the only rational place for a Pacific Mall-style condo-mall would be, well, where the existing Albion Mall is, or on one of the neighbouring parcels. And if you're so cynical about fostering "Euro streets" (or urban gardening) where there is, in your eyes, no natural inclination t/w them, who's to say that transplanted Asian-style condo malls amidst the commie blocks would fare any differently? Or, if they don't become barren failures, they could become offputtingly "ghetto" like, er, Dr Flea's not too far west of here--that is, if one wanted to pile cynicism atop cynicism, if the proximity of Dr Flea's didn't cancel out the necessity for such an array in the first place. In which case, you might as well either preserve the "do nothing" status quo, or implode the whole furshlugginer lot of them.

I used to grow tomatoes & berries in my backyard, but squirrels and raccoons took most of the harvest. Anyways, if people want to grow stuff for general recreation that is one thing. Having the City going around and toying with the zoning code in order to promote it seems unnecessary and counter productive. I don't have to think too abstractly to picture a situation where the City would zone a small patch for agriculture, which nobody would have an interest in using, thereby precluding other developments which may have a use. Certainly sounds familiar given how the City deals with some industrial properties. One nice thing about the older commie blocks is that they usually have good balcony space. With a little bit of effort, most casual gardening could take place there with poor man hydroponic rigs.

(Some people do take urban agriculture seriously as a food supply. Most people who do small scale gardening don't, but there is an increasingly visible trend towards a mashup of left wing dietary fads. This is misguided}

Then again, a lot of what was dismissed as "misguided" "left wing fads" back in the 70s, the realm of the granola-munchers who tagged along John Sewell's mayoral-campaign proto-Jane's-Walks, have transcended their own faddom and filtered their way into the mainstream over the years--and not just among the Stuff White People Like crowd, either. (Really, it isn't like they're proposing transplanting Wychwood Barns to Rowntree Mills.) Otherwise, you might as well advocate abolishing the Blue/Green Bin programmes as well, not to mention, uh, evicting the "squatters" from Toronto Island. Maybe you ought to take a cue from Rob Ford and argue that the city shouldn't be wasting tax dollars by promoting *anything at all*.

Look: it isn't like "promoting" urban gardening in this fashion is automatically doomed to failure--and besides, there's still something way too flippant about your dismissal of so-called "casual" home gardening. I mean, raccoons and squirrels haven't dissuaded many a Dufferin/St Clair/Eglinton-zone resident from setting up and making genuinely good use of their grape arbours, tomato patches, etc. Nor has natural vermin stopped my mother from such gardening--pesticide free, mind you; because if there's anything worse than coons and squirrels, it's that season she tried pesticide and all the honeybees disappeared. It's a great, active, therapeutic experience; maybe it's not everyone's cup of tea, but neither are the recreational programmes offered at our community centres. And if it didn't work out for you, maybe you just don't have the knack. Don't take it out on others. And don't automatically assume that it's something "nobody would have an interest in using": you seem to have this way of projecting a terminally glum, insular, couldn't-care-less anomie upon the residents.

High Park is a park. It is meant to be verdant, an oasis of nature so to speak.
Yet ironically, if you want to put it that way, there's an argument (which I've heard alluded to, though I don't subscribe to it) that allotment plots get in the way of said verdancy.

One of th main impetuses for this Tower project is that tower clusters have too much open green space. Community farming wont fix that. If anything it could worsen it, as people wouldn't be able to cross over previously barren fields for fear of trampling plants.

Uh, yeah, as if "community farming" in practice were nothing but a Chinese Wall of a horror vacuii of trample-able plants. And by that measure, wouldn't filling in that green space with buildings "worsen it" even more?

Remember: it isn't just a matter of "too much open green space". It's a matter of too much purposeless open green space...
 
Really? How many suburban examples -and we are talking about the 'burbs here- can you list of intimate open air boulevards in North America? If they were "thriving" in Toronto, we wouldn't be having the discussion about how to foster them in the 'burbs (because, logically, they would already be there). Finch & Kipling won't look like the stereotypical euro street anytime in the near future. It would be more realistic for the Finch & Kipling's of Toronto to model themselves on the public housing estates in Asia, which make extensive use of the mall (in part, because it is warm and humid as hell and you can't a/c the street).
I wasn't talking about suburban examples. But if the Europeans are building downtown style main streets in suburban areas there's no reason we can't do the same. There's nothing inherently European about it, and it's a matter of execution, not concept. Of course, retrofitting existing suburban areas with their semi-expressway main streets presents extra challenges. I do agree that these areas will never function like older mixed use areas of the city. The challenge is to make the existing streetscapes more pedestrian friendly. What form of development achieves this goal best is up for debate.
 
But practically speaking, the only rational place for a Pacific Mall-style condo-mall would be, well, where the existing Albion Mall is, or on one of the neighbouring parcels. And if you're so cynical about fostering "Euro streets" (or urban gardening) where there is, in your eyes, no natural inclination t/w them, who's to say that transplanted Asian-style condo malls amidst the commie blocks would fare any differently? Or, if they don't become barren failures, they could become offputtingly "ghetto" like, er, Dr Flea's not too far west of here--that is, if one wanted to pile cynicism atop cynicism, if the proximity of Dr Flea's didn't cancel out the necessity for such an array in the first place. In which case, you might as well either preserve the "do nothing" status quo, or implode the whole furshlugginer lot of them.
Dr. Flea's definitely came across my mind as a worst case scenario. At the end of the day, I would accept that *any* option won't have uniform success or failure rates and that if you build a mall in a "ghetto" you will probably get a ghetto mall, or power center or woonerf or whatever design you want. I guess the opposite would be that if you built a community farm patch in some yuppie tower cluster it would probably start sprouting arugula in no time. On the whole though, the best results will occur if we don't micromanage the process to death. Let the landowners figure out how to best use the space. Keep in mind the actual tower conversions are to be financed through developing the towers' surroundings, so you can only ignore economics so much before the entire scheme becomes impossible.

(I guess this is subjective, but I find Dr. Flea's better than the typical suburban strip mall, especially the ghetto ones. Other than the fact it is located in a run down shack in the middle of nowhere, isn't it the same kind of entrepreneurial spirit and individualism urbanism is supposed to about? It has four hundred mostly independent vendors, that has gotta count for something. How many independent vendors does CityPlace have?)
Then again, a lot of what was dismissed as "misguided" "left wing fads" back in the 70s, the realm of the granola-munchers who tagged along John Sewell's mayoral-campaign proto-Jane's-Walks, have transcended their own faddom and filtered their way into the mainstream over the years--and not just among the Stuff White People Like crowd, either. (Really, it isn't like they're proposing transplanting Wychwood Barns to Rowntree Mills.) Otherwise, you might as well advocate abolishing the Blue/Green Bin programmes as well, not to mention, uh, evicting the "squatters" from Toronto Island. Maybe you ought to take a cue from Rob Ford and argue that the city shouldn't be wasting tax dollars by promoting *anything at all*.
Nice Rob Ford jab, haven't heard one of those in at least 5 posts, I am salivating for the inevitable Mike Harris quip. Anyways, why would I want to get rid of the Blue/Green Bins? Recycling has obvious benefits to the environment and society yet can only be effectively managed as a public good. The City should do it because, in short, only the city can do it. The same could be said for any number of programs from homeless shelters to sidewalks to traffic lights. Community farming though isn't something that *needs* government help. Anybody who has a half serious interest in it can explore it any number of ways. I don't think it is being flippant to argue that individuals can deal their hobbies on their own time. In this case in particular, zoning areas for agriculture is obscene for any number of reasons. It is horrendously uneconomical and environmentally suspect, it will lower the odds of the land being put to more productive uses and it wont achieve the design goal of integrating the towers into the larger city.
Uh, yeah, as if "community farming" in practice were nothing but a Chinese Wall of a horror vacuii of trample-able plants. And by that measure, wouldn't filling in that green space with buildings "worsen it" even more?
The entire point of the phrase "if anything" is to signal a deviation from normal or expected, not an unavoidable reality. I didn't suggest that farms would turn into a "Chinese Wall," just that (and let me try this again) if anything it would heighten the strandedness this project is trying to solve. Depending on what would get built, it is possible that it might worsen it. A district energy facility would clearly be an impediment. If the resulting buildings had sufficient public space they could end up tying the towers to their surroundings. Depends how well or poorly they are designed.
 
I mean, raccoons and squirrels haven't dissuaded many a Dufferin/St Clair/Eglinton-zone resident from setting up and making genuinely good use of their grape arbours, tomato patches, etc.

You forgot stray cats, they're seem to be more in the area this year ;)

I think the concept of giving people an opportunity to use *some* of the purposeless green space for allotments is great idea. But, it has to be allowed to live or die on it's own merits. If, after a given time, the program shows declining interest or participation levels, it could be (and should be) scaled back. Key also to that is the concept of allotment rental fees, so that the program could be administered properly and be user supported.

Further, by only using some of the space for gardening, other space is available for development. Which then presents the idea of why must it be all or nothing? Infill development or community gardening? It can quite simply be both, and still provide a better usage of the space than the present sea of grass does.
 
And when it comes to the "purposefulness" of community gardening, don't forget the possibility and even actuality of community mini-festivals, markets etc which can make good use of what's grown there...

...which in their way is a trickle-down from 70s lefty idealism, merged with whatever cultural traditions the often "new Canadian" residents bring with them.
 
Anyways, why would I want to get rid of the Blue/Green Bins? Recycling has obvious benefits to the environment and society yet can only be effectively managed as a public good. The City should do it because, in short, only the city can do it.

Yet you're saying this today. My point: given your current skepticism t/w do-good lefty stuff, would you have been sounding the same note on recycling 30 or so years ago? That's what I mean about stuff trickling down to the mainstream...
 

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