News   May 06, 2024
 526     0 
News   May 06, 2024
 528     0 
News   May 06, 2024
 1.4K     1 

Toronto's skyline -- a quantitative approach

I just finished entering New York:

NEW YORK

12 883
13 498
14 600
15 456
16 447
17 259
18 150
19 188
20 341
21 199
22 103
23 76
24 83
25 89
26 69
27 56
28 46
29 26
30 56
31 40
32 58
33 53
34 44
35 42
36 33
37 19
38 24
39 27
40 30
41 21
42 27
43 16
44 11
45 13
46 16
47 6
48 12
49 8
50 17
51 8
52 8
53 3
54 7
55 7
56 3
57 3
58 2
59 2
60 5
66 1
68 1
69 1
70 1
72 1
75 1
77 1
102 1


Here is how New York compares with Chicago and Toronto:

NUMBER OF HIGHRISES (12 FLOORS OR GREATER)

New York 5198
Toronto 1662
Chicago 1054

AVERAGE HEIGHT OF HIGHRISES IN FLOORS

Toronto 18.58
New York 19.06
Chicago 23.84

TOTAL NUMBER OF HIGHRISE FLOORS (only the 12th floor and up of each highrise)

New York 41890
Chicago 13537
Toronto 12601

TOTAL 'HIGHRISE RATING' (12th floor gets 12 points, 13th floor gets 13 points ... 108th floor gets 108 points) OF ALL HIGHRISE FLOORS -- corrected version

New York 849825
Chicago 318629
Toronto 229279

So as expected, New York blows both Chicago and Toronto away in sheer scale, while Chicago is well on top in terms of height -- but it is interesting to note that New York is actually a lot like a larger version of Toronto, with large numbers of midrises scattered across the city, including the city outside of Manhattan.

Bill

p.s. -- thank you SO much for your insightful comment, scarberiankhatru. What would I ever do without posters like you to completely miss the point of what I'm saying.
 
In an attempt to demonstrate what can be extracted from the above numbers, let's take a closer look at New York:

One thing that jumps out at me is that certain floor counts are much greater than expected. For example there are almost twice as many 20-floor buildings as expected:

18 150
19 188
20 341
21 199
22 103

The fact that the floor count is a multiple of 10, and that there are fewer 18-floor and 19-floor buildings than expected, suggests to me that at least some of those buildings would normally have been one or two floors shorter, but were increased to 20 floors for prestige reasons.

The same effect is evident for several other multiples of ten, where thare are more than twice as many highrises reaching a given multiple of ten as highrises not quite reaching that level:

29 26
30 56
31 40

49 8
50 17
51 8

59 2
60 5
61 0

This effect is less dramatic with the 40-floor level, but still present. There are more 40-floor buildings (30) than there are of any other floor count above 36.

Strangely this effect is not seen in the Chicago numbers:

18 42
19 45
20 46
21 44
22 35

28 27
29 25
30 23
31 5
32 8

38 13
39 11
40 16
41 9
42 5

48 3
49 9
50 7
51 2
52 3

Instead, we see a big drop-off in the numbers of buildings after a multiple of ten is reached (as is also the case in New York) but no significant reduction in numbers just below the multiple of ten.

Toronto takes this even further, with no apparent increases or decreases (other than those due to random fluctuation) associated with floor counts that are multiples of ten:

18 113
19 86
20 85
21 56
22 52

28 27
29 24
30 15
31 13
32 13

38 4
39 3
40 4
41 1
42 0

The impression I get is that developers feel very little need to boost a building's prestige with a higher floor count in Toronto.

Bill
 
Really didn't want to add to this SSC-style thread but, c'mon, let's be fair...

Chicago%20Skyline%2002.jpg
 
ganjavih: Yes, Chicago is taller than Toronto. In fact its highrises have on average about 28% more floors (23.84 floors to 18.58 floors), and its skyline's weighted top ten is about 10% taller (333m to 304m). If you were implying by that photo that Chicago is taller than Toronto, then you are repeating the point that I have already made.

Here is a chart comparing the skylines of Toronto, Chicago and New York by number of buildings with at least each given number of floors:



In general, New York is like Toronto, multiplied by five. Chicago follows a different slope, and is nothing like either Toronto or New York.

Bill
 
from a pedestrian's perspective not only would Chicago appear taller but with twice the highrise in it core to Toronto's core, it would also appears far denser and larger
 
ganjavih:

There are exactly two buildings in that shot that make it impressive - minus Sears and Hancock... yawn. It would not be at all difficult for many here to post heaps of photos of TO's skyline that are at least as breathtaking as that, if not significantly more so.

Like I said - overrated.
 
I don't want to speak for ganjavih, but I think what he is suggesting is that Chicago's skyline is impressive in and of itself.

As for myself, I find the notion of calling it overrated a product of an opinion (to which everyone is entitled), and not a product of a statistical analysis. Where, for example, is the demarkation for over and underrated, impressive or unimpressive, beautiful or not beautiful? How would such concepts be determined?

Chicago has an impressive and beautiful skyline. That certainly takes nothing away from Toronto's skyline.
 
I like numbers myself, and I appreciate your efforts. Obviously it's impossible to numerically measure something that is an intrinsic appeal, but perhaps we can try and refine it further.

I think to make a more accurate quantitative assessment there are some things that need to be kept in mind. In fact if someone could have all the stats, and write a good computer program, it could be calculated in real time, but I degress. It is also important to note that 'skyline' means, how your buildings would look from basically any vantage point. It is reasonable to narrow this down, for instance, Toronto vs. Chicago from the respective lakes 2km away. Or from the side 2km away or whatever. But either way it has to be based on a VIEW of the buildings, instead of just calculating all buildings within the city. That said, a real-time computer render with calculations would be invaluable to measuring this from various different viewpoints (that are possible due to normal pedestrian/traffic numbers and from points that people usually look at the skyline from).

So the vantage point needs these things to be kept in mind:
1) Is this somewhere a normal person visiting or living in the city would actually look up? (i.e. a relatively high-traffic location, not some place that only crazy hardcore skyscraper enthusiasts could get to)
2) Is this view actually possible? (i.e. no billboards, nothing obstructing)
3) What could you see from the view due to other things blocking you?
4) How much of the skyline could you actually see from the view. For instance, if you stand in certain places you probably could see North York and Downtown at the same time, but then all the buildings would be so tiny it wouldn't matter at all.

Here's what needs to be factored in if we want to make a good comparison once we've figured out the vantage point:

1) The actual heights of the buildings instead of the number of floors, because we're talking about how the building LOOKS instead of what's in the inside. This would take into account:
a) How high the building looks from your vantage point. Not just the built height of the building, but how high it actually is from where you are standing. This includes elevations. For Toronto and Chicago this may not be as important, but for places like Manhattan and San Francisco it's extremely important.
b) Antennas and the like should be of course counted for less, but they still COUNT.

2) The variation of height within the buildings. For instance, Chicago looks very impressive because there are a few supertalls that are SCATTERED, giving a good variation of heights. But say Hong Kong looks less impressive thanks to IFC 2 because it's so massively big, in all pictures all the rest of the bulidings look like they are nothing, even though in real life you realize they are massive. In Toronto, you can compare this to the fact that First Canadian Place and Scotia Plaza are both so huge, even 40-story condos like the Waterpark condos look like nothing.

3) The spread of the buildings. This would be a simple TWO DIMENSIONAL view of the spread from where you are standing. For instance, standing at where the Gardiner turns into the Don Valley Parkway, you get a ridiculously good and huge view of the skyline. From the lake, the skyline is much, much thinner and thus less impressive. Chicago's is quite well spread out along the lake, but from other angles not as impressive.

4) How the buildings appear from streetlevel. Again this is a point of view thing. Because of Toronto's grid pattern, standing anywhere in the city, you can very easily see where the skyline ends. And if you're at Bay and Wellington, you can see that it seems to completely die about 500m from where you are. In NYC looking down the Avenue of Americas from Central Park, it looks endless. In Hong Kong because of the curvy roads, you can't even see the end and it's skyscrapers forever. This factor takes into account not just the spread of the buildings (#3) but also the two-dimensional density of the buildings. Obviously from a certain point of view, a simple wall of staggered bulidings Dubai style would look sufficiently endless, while from other views it would look kind of silly (as is Dubai from other angles).

5) How much the skyline 'ramps up'. This is not important for water shots, but in real life.. if the skyline were to go from smaller to increasingly bigger buildings until you get to the biggest, like a sort of mountain it is usually very pleasing. In Toronto's context, this would be the same as looking downtown from Panorama on top of the Manulife center vs looking from the lake (where you get the wall effect).


Of course that is thinking of the factors in a visual way. If this were a fully computerized numerical model, you would simply do the following. From any point of view, pick a section of your vision (i.e. 90 degrees wide directly in front of you, looking up at 15 degrees from the ground), and then calculate how much sky is blotted out by buildings. And then to factor in #5, you'd see how much skyline is blotted out by more skyline up until the tallest buildings. i.e. in Toronto if you had a smaller building blotting out the bottom of First Canadian Place it gives the skyline more depth, but generally anything BEHIND First Canadian Place doesn't matter because it's the tallest building anyway. You would also need to give a score for variability in skyline so that the supertalls are well spread out giving a good overall feel.

That would be the skyline impressiveness in the most quantitative manner possible without taking into account other natural settings or architecture.


To do this, you'd need to have a very complete render of the city in 3-d then calculate it that way. Or what you can do is take numerous photos from popular viewing locations with the camera set exactly the same way. Then use covered sky to uncovered sky calculations to see how much is seen.
 
I don't want to speak for ganjavih, but I think what he is suggesting is that Chicago's skyline is impressive in and of itself.

As for myself, I find the notion of calling it overrated a product of an opinion (to which everyone is entitled), and not a product of a statistical analysis. Where, for example, is the demarkation for over and underrated, impressive or unimpressive, beautiful or not beautiful? How would such concepts be determined?

Chicago has an impressive and beautiful skyline. That certainly takes nothing away from Toronto's skyline.

Sure, no argument - though I think he is implying that the photo depicts Chicago's skyline as being evidently 'better' than TO's. Ganj?
 
Thank you for that very thoughtful post, Epi. I agree that your approach would be the best way to compare skylines (as opposed to built form). An easier way to achieve the same result would be to physically go to a good viewpoint, and take a series of calibrated photos, that you could then take the coverage measurements from. It might be difficult, though, to ensure fairness in choosing vantage points. Obviously, a vantage point closer to the CBD will result in a larger proportion of the sky being occupied by buildings.

Accessability is an issue. The 'classic' skyline shot of Chicago has the triple peaks of John Hancock, Sears and AON above the waters of Lake Michigan, but how often does a resident of Chicago see this in person? At least with Toronto we have the Islands or Leslie Street Spit, to provide the counterpart view, and which can be reached relatively easily.

Bill
 
Chicago's downtown/financial district is far, far larger and more impressive than Toronto's. The rest of Toronto is much more attractive and impressive than the rest of Chicago. There.
 
I have avoided giving my personal opinions of the three skylines, since that is all they are -- personal. It has been a long time since I saw the Chicago or New York skylines in person, but I still clearly remember being very impressed by the respective views. Since then, I have to think that they have only improved.

For the single best skyline view, I like the Chicago skyline from over Lake Michigan. It is a combination of height, symmetry and sheer scale that I find awe-inspiring. From most other angles, the Chicago skyline, while imposing, is not quite so impressive.

Overall, the New York skyline is amazing. I once took the tour boat that circles Manhattan via the East and Hudson Rivers, and almost every angle was incredible. A random New York skyline view beats a random Chicago or Toronto skyline view.

Toronto is not quite up there with Chicago or New York, but it's still a solid number three in North America.

Bill
 

Back
Top