Toronto's ethnocultural communities before 1945

[wild goose chase]

One difference is German mass immigration to cities wasn't really "a thing" in Canada, like it was in the US. German immigration to Canada was mostly to rural areas (and in the Prairie provinces in the early 20th century it was mostly Volga Germans, few came directly from Germany). In contrast cities like Chicago, Milwaukee, St. Louis and Buffalo received very large numbers of German immigrants. Today a plurality in Pennsylvania and the Midwest are of German ancestry.

I still get the impression that German ancestry is still more associated with rural areas (or at least associated with small, Midwestern towns etc.) than urban areas, even in the US. Also, I guess it's like how Eastern European immigration (like the Ukrainian homesteaders) I think was also far more rural in Canada than in the US too.

One thing that seems kind of surprising is that looking at the census stats, quite a lot of Canadians speak German at over 600, 000 in 2006. I didn't expect it to be that high, especially since the US has somewhere between a million and a million and a half German speakers, despite having much more German-descended people not only in absolute but in proportional terms. Don`t know if that means German-Americans arrived earlier and had more time to be assimilated than their Canadian counterparts, or if German-Canadians preserved their language and/or culture more?

 

[wild goose chase]

Quite a number of Germans immigrated to Waterloo Region, where communities such as Berlin (later renamed Kitchener), New Hamburg, and Breslau (named after the German name for Wroclaw) were settled.

German immigration to the United States was so prevalent that German is the most common ancestry in the largest number of counties. Michigan has a number of German communities, such as Frankenmuth (which has an attraction themed as a German town).

Doesn't Kitchener-Waterloo supposedly have the largest Oktoberfest outside Germany, or even the largest of any city outside Munich I've heard too?

I think quite a lot of the Germans in Ontario came from the US too.

 

[wild goose chase]

An oft forgotten part of history is that a good portion of the British army fighting the American rebellion/revolution were of German (pre 1870s unification) descent. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans_in_the_American_Revolution

I imagine it was not uncommon for many of these German mercenaries to either stay behind or return after Britain's defeat.

Many German-Canadians descend from the Germans that partook in the war, either on the British or American side too.

 

[King of Kensington]

Quite a number of Germans immigrated to Waterloo Region, where communities such as Berlin (later renamed Kitchener), New Hamburg, and Breslau (named after the German name for Wroclaw) were settled.

Waterloo County was mostly rural back then; Berlin was the closest thing to a "German metropolis" in Canada.

Waterloo, Perth, Huron, Bruce and Grey counties constitute Ontario's "German belt" with many Germans immigrating there between 1830 and 1880. Ontario was about 10% German origin at the time of Confederation.

Renfrew County also received a lot of German immigrants in the 1860s, heading to Canada because of the Civil War.

ETA: Yes, Waterloo received the bulk of Pennsylvania Germans in the early 19th century, establishing Waterloo as a hub for later immigration directly from Germany.

 

[the lemur]

The US South exploded in growth after the effects of the Civil War.

Saying you're "British" is like saying you're "Canadian"--meaningless unless you're "new stock" to use an unPC term.

You could be Irish, Scots, Scots Irish, Welsh or English but never British if your family roots are in Great Britain.

A person who is British is in general someone with roots in one or more of the constituent countries of the UK (the United Kingdom of Great Britain (England, Scotland, Wales) and Northern Ireland), or a British crown dependency (Isle of Man, Channel Islands) or, to a certain extent, overseas territories such as the Falklands, Gibraltar, etc. There is, however, much more of a tendency now to identify as English rather than (just) British among people primarily or exclusively associated with England. 'British', 'Britain' and 'Britons' have long been used as terms to describe and appeal to people throughout the UK, regardless of the primary affiliation/allegiance to one part of the UK: Keep Britain Tidy. Buy British. 100 Great Britons, etc.

The identification of immigrants to Canada from the UK and dependent islands and Ireland as 'English', 'British', etc, has been obscured in the past by migration with the islands (Ireland to England, Scotland to Ireland, etc.) prior to emigration and also by their ports of departure.

 

[the lemur]

One thing that seems kind of surprising is that looking at the census stats, quite a lot of Canadians speak German at over 600, 000 in 2006. I didn't expect it to be that high, especially since the US has somewhere between a million and a million and a half German speakers, despite having much more German-descended people not only in absolute but in proportional terms. Don`t know if that means German-Americans arrived earlier and had more time to be assimilated than their Canadian counterparts, or if German-Canadians preserved their language and/or culture more?

My guess would be that German immigration to Canada went on for longer than the 19th and early-20th century pattern that applies to the US, aside from perhaps an increase shortly after WW2.

Another factor that might be involved is the distinction between immigration from Germany and immigration from other German-speaking countries in Europe (Austria, Switzerland, Luxembourg, parts of Belgium and Italy) and regions that were at one point home to ethnic Germans (former Czechoslovakia, Silesia in Poland, eastern France, southern Denmark, even Romania) but which were either not recorded as Germans or were no longer German territory at the time of emigration. It also seems like there are some German-speaking Mennonites from Mexico and South America who are or were emigrating to Canada and may not have been counted as Germans either.
.

 

[King of Kensington]

I still get the impression that German ancestry is still more associated with rural areas (or at least associated with small, Midwestern towns etc.) than urban areas, even in the US. Also, I guess it's like how Eastern European immigration (like the Ukrainian homesteaders) I think was also far more rural in Canada than in the US too.

One thing that seems kind of surprising is that looking at the census stats, quite a lot of Canadians speak German at over 600, 000 in 2006. I didn't expect it to be that high, especially since the US has somewhere between a million and a million and a half German speakers, despite having much more German-descended people not only in absolute but in proportional terms. Don`t know if that means German-Americans arrived earlier and had more time to be assimilated than their Canadian counterparts, or if German-Canadians preserved their language and/or culture more?

Where do you get that figure?

According to the 2011 census, 243,445 Canadians speak German at home. The US doesn't have mother tongue or ability to speak a language data, so that's the only data that's really comparable.

Mennonites make up a higher percentage of the population here than in the US and there is pretty high language retention among them. Hence Manitoba has the highest German speaking % of any province, even though Saskatchewan has the highest % of German descent.

 

[King of Kensington]

Manitoba

German origin: 218,490
Speak German at home: 44,160

Saskatchewan

German origin: 288,790
Speak German at home: 12,570

Quite the dramatic difference!

Mennonite religion

Manitoba: 44,600
Saskatchewan: 17,130

 

[thecharioteer]

Wonderful pic from the TPL dated 1923 of students from the York Street Public School which stood on the NW corner of York and Richmond:

Inscribed:

A half-tone block after the print is in The Globe, Toronto, 1 June 1923, p. 12, with letterpress, b.: IN THE CANADIAN MELTING POT-More Than a Dozen Races Are Represented in This / Group of Children Photographed at York Street School, Toronto. Front Row (Left to Right): / Danish, Bulgarian, Canadian, Chinese, Jewish, Polish, Italian, Austrian, Syrian. Back Row: / English, Scottish, Negro, Swiss.
Inscribed in pencil, b.: Fourteen nationalities are represented in this / group at York St. School. / Back row - left to right / Chinese, English, Scottish, Negro, Swiss, / Front row - left to right: / Russian, Danish, Bulgarian, Canadian, Chinese, / Jewish, Polish, Italian, Austrian, Syrian

 

[King of Kensington]

Did anybody do the Ward walking tour or have the book that just came out?

http://www.macleans.ca/culture/books/the-fertile-poverty-of-torontos-first-immigrant-neighbourhood/

 

[King of Kensington]

A study of the size and geographic location of Toronto's Jewish population from 1954, showing wards, federal ridings and suburban municipalities going back to the 19th century and census tracts for 1951.

http://www.bjpa.org/publications/downloadFile.cfm?FileID=17886

The Jewish population was pretty small until about 1900. The Eastern European immigrants started out in the Ward and the initial direction was westward. The Spadina/Kensington area became the center of the Jewish community by WWI and from there it continued to expand west of Bathurst. In the 1940s, the westward movement became a northward movement.

This report was written right when mass suburbanization was beginning, see you can see that there are two "clusters": an older one centered around Bathurst and College, and a newer one in Forest Hill. The St. Clair West area - in between - also had a sizable Jewish population.

 

[wild goose chase]

Where do you get that figure?

According to the 2011 census, 243,445 Canadians speak German at home. The US doesn't have mother tongue or ability to speak a language data, so that's the only data that's really comparable.

Mennonites make up a higher percentage of the population here than in the US and there is pretty high language retention among them. Hence Manitoba has the highest German speaking % of any province, even though Saskatchewan has the highest % of German descent.

I was going by the overall number of people who spoke the language:
http://www12.statcan.ca/census-rece...&Temporal=2006&THEME=70&VID=0&VNAMEE=&VNAMEF=

It seems like Mennonites were one of the few immigrant groups who maintained strong multi-generational language retention.

It seems like in general, it is rare for many heritage languages to be carried over three generations, and most places that have a large population or percentage of people speaking an immigrant-brought language are that way due to a high percentage of foreign-born and their children speaking it only.

 

[wild goose chase]

Wonderful pic from the TPL dated 1923 of students from the York Street Public School which stood on the NW corner of York and Richmond:
View attachment 63728

Inscribed:

A half-tone block after the print is in The Globe, Toronto, 1 June 1923, p. 12, with letterpress, b.: IN THE CANADIAN MELTING POT-More Than a Dozen Races Are Represented in This / Group of Children Photographed at York Street School, Toronto. Front Row (Left to Right): / Danish, Bulgarian, Canadian, Chinese, Jewish, Polish, Italian, Austrian, Syrian. Back Row: / English, Scottish, Negro, Swiss.
Inscribed in pencil, b.: Fourteen nationalities are represented in this / group at York St. School. / Back row - left to right / Chinese, English, Scottish, Negro, Swiss, / Front row - left to right: / Russian, Danish, Bulgarian, Canadian, Chinese, / Jewish, Polish, Italian, Austrian, Syrian

For the nationality "Canadian", what was meant then, since English and Scottish were listed as separate nationalities? Did they mean it in the sense of having aboriginal ancestry, or that of the Canadiens (early French-descended settlers) or descendants of colonial settlers in general?
It's nice to see from the photo that Toronto had a great deal of diversity even back then!

A study of the size and geographic location of Toronto's Jewish population from 1954, showing wards, federal ridings and suburban municipalities going back to the 19th century and census tracts for 1951.

http://www.bjpa.org/publications/downloadFile.cfm?FileID=17886

The Jewish population was pretty small until about 1900. The Eastern European immigrants started out in the Ward and the initial direction was westward. The Spadina/Kensington area became the center of the Jewish community by WWI and from there it continued to expand west of Bathurst. In the 1940s, the westward movement became a northward movement.

This report was written right when mass suburbanization was beginning, see you can see that there are two "clusters": an older one centered around Bathurst and College, and a newer one in Forest Hill. The St. Clair West area - in between - also had a sizable Jewish population.

It's interesting to see that so many communities that are present all across Toronto and the GTA had their start early in our city's history.

Would it be fair to say that many of Toronto's communities -- Jewish, Italian, and perhaps even the Chinese or West Indians/Black Canadians now present in places further afield, whether in North York, Vaughan, Markham or Scarborough, ultimately owe their existence to the older path paved by internal migration from the Ward (via places like Kensington, Chinatown, Little Italy) first, ultimately ending up towards the "suburbs"?

I mean, there's no doubt that growth in part, operates from immigrants directly moving to the suburbs, but do you think that the older (early 20th century, if not 19th) urban immigrants basically set a foothold first in other parts of Toronto, acting as trailblazers to settle before the foreign-born feel attracted to live there too? Or do some of the farther "ethno-burbs" (such as the Italians in Woodbridge, the Chinese in Markham etc., the Caribbean Canadians in North York/Scarborough) derive from "pioneering" (for lack of a better term) immigrants who basically settled suburbs first independently, without considering whether an older urban community of the same ethnicity was there or not?

It would make sense that some later groups (eg. South Asians) that didn't have much of a pre-1960s community in the city probably went directly to at least the former inner suburbs/metro Toronto first, without an inner city phase, but I wonder which ethnic communities have continuity with their earliest members in Toronto's inner city, like the Ward. Is it basically, if a ethnicity had a significant community before the post-war period, then it grew from city to suburb, but if it mostly stemmed from post-war migration, probably founding "ethno-burbs" directly was more likely?

 

[wild goose chase]

Saying you're "British" is like saying you're "Canadian"--meaningless unless you're "new stock" to use an unPC term.

You could be Irish, Scots, Scots Irish, Welsh or English but never British if your family roots are in Great Britain.

It's interesting since "Britain" is an ancient place name, and the name applied to the ancient pre-Roman Britons (a Celtic people whose language was related to Welsh) is quite a bit older than the English and Scottish identities which came later (early Middle Ages).

But I guess British as an identity grew to encompass belonging to inhabitants of the island as a whole to the point where it implies identification with a large, not local identity. Not too different from the fact that we Canadians owe the name of our nationality to an Iroquoian word for village and after natives used it, was then used by earlier French settlers to call themselves ("Canadiens"), before British settlers and then later immigrants made the identity country-wide.

 

[King of Kensington]

"British" is more of a civic identity, "English" is generally an ethnic one.