Toronto Yonge Sheppard Centre Renovations and Expansion | 123.13m | 35s | RioCan | BDP Quadrangle

[DB13]

The "ethnic" angle is tiring, outdated, and isn't particularly convincing. People can eat wherever they choose to eat and their ethnic background should not determine where they are expected to eat. Statements such as "Would any self-respecting Mexican person be eating at Chipotle Mexican Grill?" are quite frankly ridiculous. Are you suggesting that Mexicans must only eat at "authentic" Mexican restaurants and that they somehow betraying their culture if they choose something else that suits their own individual preferences?

The market will decide what survives.This is more of a matter of economics and the homogenization of retail, as Skeezix mentions. I would not necessarily suggest that this is a good thing from a public good perspective, but as far as I can tell everyone is acting within the bounds of the law and is working to maximize their own economic interests. If more money is to be made in chain stores than independent stores, then the landlord would be acting entirely rationally by favouring them. If, however, generic chain stores don't respond to the preferences of the local community as you would suggest, they will fail and the "authentic" restaurants will be the beneficiaries.

We live in a new reality where diversity is the norm. We have (hopefully) moved beyond the "balkanization" of previous decades towards a more fluid form of diversity in which one's background is not a determinant of one's lifestyle preferences, relationships or preferred neighbourhood.

 

[pipolchap]

SheppardCenter Mall should have became the ethnic mall! Imagine SheppardCentre Mall replacing upper floor LA-Fitness & Longos for a Loblaw's T&T Chinese supermarket or Korean Galleria supermarket or Perian Adonis supermarket,... and converting its retail space into a PacificMall format full of various ethnic retail stores and restaurants serving authentic Chinese Dim-Sum and authentic Korean BBQ restaurants and authentic Persian Shish-KaBob,.... so that SheppardCentre Mall becomes more representative of the area's ethnicity.... but instead RioCan likes being mainstream and generic,....

RioCan knows this generic approach will work in this area and is even betting $220,000,000 in renovations! With that type of investment, do you actually believe they don't know about the demographics of the area?! Please understand this, you aren't the only one living here and you are not their target customer. It would also be crazy to say that you know what everybody in the area wants just by the COLOUR OF THEIR SKIN!

If a Chinese mall was viable in the area, it would have been built! But it isn't. Why? I'll tell you! There is very little profit in catering to customers that go to places like P-mall. Their target customers would rather drive 50 km away to save a few bucks! These customers do not value convenience, they're generally materialistic and value their luxury cars and driving to the ends of the city to get a deal. How's that for generalizations!

Now back on topic, I see that the "Sheppard Ticket Centre" is returning, so there goes your "pushed out" theory! I'm glad I can get Korean lottery tickets as opposed to Canadian ones! My Korean friends will be happy to converse with the shopkeepers once they return. Can't wait for your long response!

 

[interchange42]

Hey @pipolchap and @sunnyraytoronto: so, it's come to a one-upping of racial stereotypes to make a point about the problem of racial stereotyping. Everyone gets it, so this will be the end of it, right? You're both done I hope?

42

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

For YongeSheppardCentre Mall, RioCan sets favourable terms to keep the existing larger anchor type tenants (ShoppersDrugMart, TD, BMO, CIBC, Winners) but presented very unfavourable terms to the small ethnic mom&pops retailer so that they in effect gets "pushed out" in favour of their more generic brand name establishments,... mainly favouring those already on RioCan list of tenants from other RioCan retail developments (think of it as an Old Boys Club for retailers). So YongeSheppardCentre mall will become another generic "cookie-cutter" RioCan mall, this is what "the RioCan market" dictates,... which limits the "utility" of YongeSheppardCentre mall to the diverse local community of NorthYorkCentre.


Demographic Data Ensures Better Community "Utility"

All high-density developments, especially when concentrated within an area like NorthYorkCentre, needs proper infrastructure,... not just for the physical development but also for the people who actually live in these high-density development and the communities around them,.... and hence "utility" is created. NorthYorkCentre have changed dramatically over the years, not just physically in terms of high-density condo developments,... but in terms of the people, their demographic distribution in terms of ethnicity, age, educational level, income, etc,... and mainly due to the concentration of high-density developments, the data skews from the city average; thus, a generic one-size fit all approach generally won't work here. The City has a responsibility to provide the proper infrastructure to support these people, both old and new residents,.... often done with limited Section37 CommunityBenefit and other developer settlement money,.... here's some of the Statistic Canada Census & National Household Survey data the City uses,... thus, when dealing with the City it's best to be familiar with these data to ensure the City delivers the proper infrastructure the community really needs VS wasteful infrastructure that would only benefit a few at the cost of many.
http://www1.toronto.ca/City Of Toronto/City Planning/Wards/Files/pdf/W/Ward 23 Profile 2011.pdf
http://www1.toronto.ca/City Of Toronto/City Planning/Wards/Files/pdf/W/Ward 23 NHS Profile 2011.pdf
If you have issues with the type of data Statistic Canada collects or the City uses, then speak to them,... me, I just quote them, I don't collect them or manipulate them.

A misconception spread by developers to the community when high-density condo development started in NorthYorkCentreSecondaryPlan area was: "Don't worry these are all tiny condos for single people on the Yonge Subway line." Today, these condo unit host an average of 2.0-2.5 person per unit and condo folks don't remain childless,... compared to the rest of the city, NorthYorkCentre (Ward23 Willowdale) has a baby boom for the last decade! The under 5 years old demographic increased by 24.0% between 2006-2011 VS only 4.1% of the rest of the city (Page 2 of above Census data link). Now CityPlanning, Councillor office and community groups has been trying to provide local infrastructure for all these local kids! EmeraldPark Section37 CommunityBenefits include re-building of LansingUnitedChurch Community Centre with larger Non-Profit Child Care facility to open April 2017, Avondale Public School will include Non-Profit Child Care facility when it reopens January 2018, Section37 CommunityBenefit for RioCan's YongeSheppardCentre redevelopment includes a large Non-Profit Child Care facility (4 times larger than the previous private daycare that's being "push out") and a new FamilyService Centre to service the local community when it opens Spring 2018,.... and these are within their retail mall structure. Hmmm,... developer handing over retail space for community usage,... in this case Non-Profit Child Care and Family Service Centre.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2015/ny/bgrd/backgroundfile-75642.pdf

Hmmm,... that's a lot of Non-Profit Child Care capacity coming online within a short period of time to NorthYorkCentre,... how do they know it's not too much? They use Statistic Canada Census data, and they factor in the income, age and (dare I say it) ethnic data - since certain ethnicity are more likely to live in multi-generational households and thus less likely to need Child-Care. This help ensure the city doesn't provide too much of one type of infrastructure,... at the cost of another since resources are limited. Thus, it's important to examine the area's demographic data.


"The Market" Doesn't Produce What's Best For The Community

Often the retail space of a new development is cited as a beneficial features and concessions to the local community (many developers use this strategy to try to lower community opposition and hence their Section37 CommunityBenefit fees but the retail space are actually revenue generators for them!), this was certainly the case during both community meetings when RioCan presented their 39-storey condo tower proposal and repeated diverted attention towards the benefits of the renovated SheppardCentre mall as a community hub for everyone in the community. Since I participated in those community consultation meetings, I feel I have a legitimate beef now that RioCan have "pushed out" the small ethnic mom&pop stores in favour of more generic corporately controlled establishments,... and of course I don't expect RioCan to go all ethnic but at least a decent retail mix that's reflective of the community they're supposed to serve.
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...9s-riocan-quadrangle.17901/page-9#post-818939

Let "the market" take over?,.... but we've seen countless times where developer promised retail does not materialize,.... IE: At EmeraldPark Loblaw's T&T bailed, Metro-Adonis rejected site, now Metro gone AWOL and the already constructed LCBO been "Opening Soon" for over 1.5 years already! We've seen this happen at many development in NorthYorkCentre where the promised retail takes too long to materialize, constantly turnover or don't show up at all. It's a problem for the local community since these retail are part of the "community benefit package" that the developer sold the community on in order to gain community acceptance of their development.

On a number of recent high-density developments in NorthYorkCentre, CityPlanning have ensure that these development will actually have desirable types of retail space that will actually benefit the local community. This idea originated from Councillor Filion's office,.... the north-side retail space of Sorbara's Beacon development (under construction now to be completed June 2018) and adjacent south-side retail space of G-Group's Centrium2/EllieCondo along with the new NY-Square open public mew space in between,.... will all be handed over to the City then owned by the City and managed by the City & community to create a St.Lawrence Market type food retail area - such retail format won't happen today if you wait for "the market" to produce it.
North-side retail space of Sorbara's Beacon
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...-wallman-architects.13050/page-9#post-1152234
South-side retail space of G-Group's Centrium2/EllieCondo,....
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...p-kirkor-architects.9715/page-12#post-1152187

But why would the Councillor and CityPlanning want a St.Lawrence Market type retail space in NorthYorkCentre?,... There's already plenty of food options all over NorthYorkCentre. The problem is "the market" created a a moderately severe "Food Swamp" - an overabundance of unhealthy food choices. The Yonge Corridor in NorthYorkCentre has an over abundance of cheap fast food and unhealthy food choices - this is what rules when "the market" takes over,... similar issue of market-driven Fast-Food places locating near Schools and producing unhealthy kids. Thus, the St.Lawrence Market type retail would provide healthy food choices,... as does the FarmerMarket the city hosts at MelLastmanSquare.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/11/10/are-you-living-in-an-unhealthy-food-swamp.html

Note: If CityPlanning so desperate to put in Non-Profit Child Care at EmeraldPark/LansingUnitedChurch, Avondale Public School & YongeSheppardCentre,... why not use the above retail space to put in Non-Profit Child Care at Sorbara's Beacon and G-Group Centrium2/EllieCondo development as well? There's already a large Non-Profit Child Care facility directly east of these site - YongeHeartsChildCareCentre.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Ethnic "Food Desert", "Food Swamp" & Community-Hub/Anchor

The new YongeSheppardCentre is coming online with a large amount of prime retail space, some are large format retail space for Longos and LA-Fitness - but will that really benefit the local community. The new Longos at YongeSheppardCentre will mainly steal customers from HullmarkCentre WholeFoodsMarket (easy), EmpressWalk's Loblaws and also the Metro on ChurchAve,... add in a Sobey's,.... and it'll still leave a large segment of the local community underserved. Surely there's better "utility" for these large format retail space at the new YongeSheppardCentre Mall,....

The largest ethnic demographic in NorthYorkCentre are Korean, Persian and Chinese,.... where do they shop for their "ethnic" grocery? Local Korean in NorthYorkCentre have a number of H-Marts mini-marts that include 24-hour stores and M2M stores within walking distance, but they still have to drive to get to the nearest Korean Supermarket in 905.

There are no Persian supermarket/grocery-store or even mini-mart in NorthYorkCentre, the closest Persian mini-marts are on Yonge near Centre Ave - thus not within walking distance for most residents of NorthYorkCentre. Like-wise, there are no Chinese supermarket/grocery-store or even mini-mart in NorthYorkCentre,.... thus drive to hidden Spring at WorldOnYonge or a dirty Chinese supermarket at Leslie & Finch or one north of FairviewMall,... but more realistically, the choices are better in Scarborough, Chinatown or 905,....

With regards to local ethnic grocery shopping,... NorthYorkCentre has become a "ethnic" "Food Desert" for the local Persian and Chinese residents,.... and an unhealthy borderline "ethnic" "Food Swamp" for the local Korean residents mainly relying on mini-marts.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/toronto/mapping-torontos-food-territories/article10202474/
Note: Many priority neighbourhoods in Toronto suffer from "Food Deserts" where there are no local supermarkets and local residents are forced to travel longer distance for basic grocery shopping or are forced to use over-priced local convenience-stores/mini-marts as their main source of grocery,... which leads to a even more problematic "Food Swamp" issue of an overabundance of unhealthy food choices.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2015/11/10/are-you-living-in-an-unhealthy-food-swamp.html

The irony is NorthYorkCentre certainly isn't a priority neighbourhood and many of these people choose to live in NorthYorkCentre because it's walkable urban centre which should be within walking distance for most tasks,... but yet, many must travel out of the area just to do their basic grocery shopping. Many other ethnic areas centre around ethnic supermarket/grocery-store which acts at their ethnic community-hub/anchor,... here in NorthYorkCentre it's quite different,.... many visible minority community in NorthYorkCentre really don't have that ethnic community-hub/anchor that a local ethnic supermarket would provide,.... but let's add a couple more generic supermarkets like a Longos and Sobeys too,... they just divide the same generic pie into smaller pieces,...


BTW,.... As I already stated, the new Longos at YongeSheppardCentre will only survive by stealing customers away from other generic supermarkets in the area,... since the area's demographic shows that generic market is really a lot smaller than most folks think,.... longer term, I predict the Longos would never thrive but just barely survive (right now, Longos head-office should be considering walking away),... HullmarkCentre's WholeFoodsMarket will be gone (likely sometimes between 2019 to 2024). But what do I know,... oh, over 3 years ago when EmeraldPark construction was starting their residential condo floor construction, I'm the one who stated the EmeraldPark Metro won't survive and listed why,.... and within the last year after Metro finally realize an EmerldPark Metro would be a huge money loser - they never even started store construction and gone AWOL at EmeraldPark.
http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/thread...is-rosario-varacalli.4829/page-70#post-754755

 

[amnesiajune]

The largest ethnic demographic in NorthYorkCentre are Korean, Persian and Chinese,.... where do they shop for their "ethnic" grocery?

Loblaws, usually, in the aisle beside the beer & wine.

The irony is NorthYorkCentre certainly isn't a priority neighbourhood and many of these people choose to live in NorthYorkCentre because it's walkable urban centre which should be within walking distance for most tasks,... but yet, many must travel out of the area just to do their basic grocery shopping.

If you have to travel out of the area for "basic groceries", it's not because North York Centre is some food desert. It's because you're too pretentious to buy fruits, veggies, meat and bread at one of the two grocery stores and three supermarkets within a 15 minute walk of each other.

I predict the Longos would never thrive but just barely survive (right now, Longos head-office should be considering walking away),... HullmarkCentre's WholeFoodsMarket will be gone (likely sometimes between 2019 to 2024).

On what basis?

But what do I know,... oh, over 3 years ago when EmeraldPark construction was starting their residential condo floor construction, I'm the one who stated the EmeraldPark Metro won't survive and listed why,.... and within the last year after Metro finally realize an EmerldPark Metro would be a huge money loser - they never even started store construction and gone AWOL at EmeraldPark.

So what? You don't have to be a genius to guess that a store whose brand is "come here because you're too lazy to go somewhere better" isn't going to do well across the street from Longo's and five blocks away from one of the best Loblaws locations in the city.

 

[NorthYorkEd]

The largest ethnic demographic in NorthYorkCentre are Korean, Persian and Chinese,.... where do they shop for their "ethnic" grocery?

I get your point, but you'll see a mix of ethnic groups working (and shopping) at Shoppers, Metro, and many other local generic businesses. Not too many Persians, Jews, or white teenagers serving bubble tea, slinging noodles, or stocking shelves at HMart.

I understand that there is sometimes an intrinsic cultural understanding needed for some jobs, especially in ethnic food preparation. But surely, anyone can stock shelves or tend a cash register. Again, lets include hiring practices in our desire to be more community-minded and inclusive.

In that sense, the generics are actually more inclusive, and thus contribute more to establishing a thriving, diverse, and well-mixed neighbourhood. Perhaps they can improve their cultural offerings, but I'd rather see a move towards blending than the building of even more "ethno-specific" silos.

Just curious -- what is not available around here (grocery-wise) that someone absolutely must drive elsewhere to get it?

 

[pipolchap]

There is some misinformation being spewed here! Hopefully I'm not being repetitive.

"Anchor tenants" exist for a reason. They bring in customers, period! No one is being "pushed-out" of Sheppard Centre! Believe it or not, "small ethnic mom&pops retailers" need these well-known stores to provide the foot traffic to survive. Case-in-point, why did Europe Bound follow MEC when MEC moved downtown from Front to King? Why do malls die when anchor tenants move out? Check out malls without anchor tenants like Honeydale mall.

Also, why are there no Iranian or Chinese grocery stores around Yonge and Sheppard even though there is demand for it? It's all about rent and margins. Here's how it works in a free-market society. Since this area is popular and everybody would love to open up business here, rents tend to be high. In order to pay the rent, margins need to be high to make some profit. (Hope I didn't lose you on this concept, but it isn't too complicated.) Low-markup grocers such as Iranian grocers, Chinese Grocers, No Frills, Price Chopper and Freshco will not open here because they depend on low prices to draw in their customers. T&T (the "expensive" Chinese grocer) and Adonis had a chance to open, but for whatever reason, they thought it was best to pass. Trust me, I'm sure they did their homework.

Business is an equal paying field. Here, Korean grocers are willing to pay the expensive rents and their customers willing to pay the markup. (aside: What does that say about Koreans?) On the other hand, Iranian and Chinese grocers are not opening up because they know their customers are not willing to support them in the area. One Iranian grocer tried to run one up at Olive and Yonge and failed. It's an expensive lesson to find out the local Iranians won't support them, but with a free market comes free choice!

People that live here who are complaining about the lack of choice probably do not even shop in the area. It's not like the area stores do not carry Iranian and Chinese goods. I've seen Loblaws, Metro, HMart and M2M carry Chinese and Iranian produce and goods, bean sprouts, and Iranian flat breads and Chinese baked goods. Since this are was quite suburban 25 years ago, the complainers are used to driving and would rather drive a bit more to buy cheaper groceries and not support the local merchants.

Nowadays, there are plenty more people moving in who value convenience and will pay the markup at Whole Foods, Longos, Metro and Loblaws. The long time locals in the area would rather believe that this is not happening.

Aside: Wait until you see the prices at a St.Lawrence Market type food retail area, north of Sorbara's Beacon. You think Whole Foods is expensive? Claiming such retail format "won't happen today if you wait for "the market" to produce it" is probably a good thing. Does anybody remember Filion's other project, A-La-Cart? Haha!

 

[NorthYorkEd]

Nowadays, there are plenty more people moving in who value convenience and will pay the markup at Whole Foods, Longos, Metro and Loblaws. The long time locals in the area would rather believe that this is not happening.

Indeed. We will do anything to avoid driving somewhere. I not only value my time and convenience, but also the costs of gas, wear and tear, and the frustration/horror show that is driving in Toronto/GTA. Our goal is to eventually get rid of the car and use car sharing and transit. Someday.

Does anybody remember Filion's other project, A-La-Cart? Haha!

Must have been before my time (2012). What was this about?

 

[amnesiajune]

Must have been before my time (2012). What was this about?

Back in 2009, the city launched a pilot project to create non-hot dog food carts sorta like what New York has all over the place. It ended up turning into a bureaucratic mess that became symbolic of the "gravy train" that everyone hated. The city wanted a uniform "look and feel" for the cart, so they had one custom-built for the program and it was garbage because of poor specifications from the city - too small, too heavy, no weather protection, very hard to move around and the appliances were unreliable.

There were expensive fees to participate in the program, and the cart owners were required to be working at the cart for the majority of its hours, which basically meant that if you didn't work 60+ hours per week then you couldn't operate long enough to make a profit.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/09/17/why_torontos_street_food_program_is_in_shambles.html

 

[DB13]

Indeed. We will do anything to avoid driving somewhere. I not only value my time and convenience, but also the costs of gas, wear and tear, and the frustration/horror show that is driving in Toronto/GTA. Our goal is to eventually get rid of the car and use car sharing and transit. Someday.

I live on the Yonge "strip" and don't own a car but rather use a car sharing service for the odd time that I do need to drive somewhere off the TTC grid. I walk and take the subway everywhere. The key is to buy groceries like produce downtown on the way home from work, and then buy the everyday essentials at the Sheppard Centre Shoppers.

I'm truly looking forward to the renewed Sheppard Centre. I'll look forward to having another grocery store at Sheppard (Whole Foods isn't my scene) although I'm not too familiar with Longos' prices and selection.

 

[amnesiajune]

I'm truly looking forward to the renewed Sheppard Centre. I'll look forward to having another grocery store at Sheppard (Whole Foods isn't my scene) although I'm not too familiar with Longos' prices and selection.

Why not Loblaws at North York Centre? Same parent company as Shoppers but better selection and somehow it's cheaper.

 

[DB13]

Why not Loblaws at North York Centre? Same parent company as Shoppers but better selection and somehow it's cheaper.

Honestly, I'm just too lazy to go the extra stop north on the subway and back. I love Loblaws and I actually used to work at that location when I was a student.

 

[Skeezix]

Back in 2009, the city launched a pilot project to create non-hot dog food carts sorta like what New York has all over the place. It ended up turning into a bureaucratic mess that became symbolic of the "gravy train" that everyone hated. The city wanted a uniform "look and feel" for the cart, so they had one custom-built for the program and it was garbage because of poor specifications from the city - too small, too heavy, no weather protection, very hard to move around and the appliances were unreliable.

There were expensive fees to participate in the program, and the cart owners were required to be working at the cart for the majority of its hours, which basically meant that if you didn't work 60+ hours per week then you couldn't operate long enough to make a profit.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2010/09/17/why_torontos_street_food_program_is_in_shambles.html

That wasn't Filion's project. He was the member of Council who got the ball rolling by asking staff to look into why in a city as diverse as Toronto street cart food offerings were limited to hot dogs and polish sausages. He had a good idea, which then was taken up by others and ruined. I wouldn't link the disaster that followed to Filion, and least no more than I would to Council generally. But you are correct that it was a disaster.

The disaster didn't really have anything to do with the gravy train per se, but it was certainly an example of bureaucratic ineptitude, not to mention Council ineptitude. It wasn't just the carts, which were too expensive, too big and too unwieldy, but bureaucrats who tried to meet various policy objectives (from healthy foods to public realm beautification) by micro-managing the new food cart program. And the politicians ensured that these costly new carts got terrible locations, so as not to antagonize bricks-and-mortar restaurants and BIAs. Poor cart operators lost their shirts.

It's a textbook example of a municipality taking a good idea and mismanaging it with terrible results.

 

[amnesiajune]

He had a good idea, which then was taken up by others and ruined. I wouldn't link the disaster that followed to Filion, and least no more than I would to Council generally.

He did take responsibility for a lot of the problems with the program (and good on him for doing that), which is exceptionally rare for elected officials to do.