kettal
Banned
I think we will see the MCC zone grow southwards. It will be more like North York centre in it's shape, stretching as far south as Dundas.
Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
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I think we will see the MCC zone grow southwards. It will be more like North York centre in it's shape, stretching as far south as Dundas.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
Of course GO and subway serve different markets. GO is a commuter service. You've got to understand that regional rail is absolutely nothing like GO. Nothing like GO. Regional rail is rapid transit, just like subway. GO is commuter rail service.
When you talk about parallel future regional rail corridors and subway lines, you're right to an extent. There are two important differences, however. The existing parallel routes are actually quite distant--definitely not within walking distance like the Mississauga rail corridor and a Dundas subway. The other rail corridors have relatively infrequent stops compared to the parallel subway. As far as I can tell, any subway extension to MCC would more-or-less replicate the stopping pattern of a regional rail route.
I just don't understand how you can't see that a regional rail service that provides a faster, more comfortable ride and serves all of Mississauga instead of just a stub terminal at MCC is more useful.
I think you're still latching on to this idea that it's some kind of GO service, or marginal improvement on GO service. Lakeshore is nothing like proper regional rail. Just because we don't have something now doesn't mean that it can't be done.
This is a lot more than all-day service on all lines. I think there's no point to doing these piecemeal improvements. We need to completely rebuild corridors, either simultaneously or sequentially, for proper regional rail. I'd do Milton first or maybe second after Lakeshore. The rebuilding process would include all of the items that you mentioned: electrification, new rolling stock, and additional stations. For Milton, it would include the diversion project. You're making these things sound impossible, but none of them are particularly difficult. Laying tracks, building a couple tunnels, building simple surface stations, and buying rail vehicles is not difficult.
I can completely understand the argument that you want a parallel subway line to serve the area between Kipling and MCC. That might make sense, though I think it would likely permanently preclude any real large-scale improvement to transit in Mississauga. What I don't understand is this LRT promoter mentality that building any large scale projects (at comparable cost) that would really dramatically improve transit across the service area is "impossible" and we have to settle with a basic, slow approach.
You're right that an MCC subway extension might be easier or at least much more familiar and easy to understand, but that's because it's far less useful! All it would serve is MCC and its immediate environs. Regional rail would serve all of Mississauga and connect neighbourhoods like Erindale and Streetsville and Meadowvale directly to MCC by rapid transit, allowing MCC to develop into a real employment centre in its own right.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
No, you are right. I wasn't responding to you in particular, it just ended up looking like that. That said, unless i've gone crazy, it has been endlessly proposed that REXifying the RH GO line will render the Yonge extension mute. I was more responding to this line of thought.
In this case, yes, undoubtedly. RH GO only carries like 5-6k people per day. It would obviously depend on route layout and such, but comparable routes elsewhere have a design capacity of 11,000 pphpd and easily achieve in excess of 60,000 daily riders.
Well, I'm not against those goals, but they seem specifically well tailored for a bus system as opposed to rail. So, instead of having westbound riders on Steeles or Finch attempt an interchange with another route, which generally implies 10+ minute delays, why not just have a portion of routes peel south along the DVP and bee-line to wherever. The interchange with the Sheppard Subway, in particular, would be improved via buses. Instead of the current sordid transfer at Oriole/Leslie, buses could just detour off of the DVP and interchange directly in the Don Mills busbay, or whatever happens with the Sheppard LRT extension.
Yes, but it would be far easier to disperse park n'rides that would be serviced by a bus system. Or, more specifically, you wouldn't have to build rail infrastructure to service the disperse stops.
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unimaginative2
Senior Member
Those are very valid points, but I'd turn it around and say that I think the type of approach chosen will determine the form of the redevelopment. A subway along Dundas would concentrate development along Dundas, while regional rail with diversion to MCC would extend development southward to the rail corridor at stations.
These things aren't naturally occurring phenomena, though. If development demands additional stops, they can be added. They can even be added quite easily after the fact owing to the surface location of regional rail through that area.
Again, these projects don't just materialize. It's a choice. Do we want regional rail that serves all of Mississauga, or do we want a stub-end subway line to MCC?
Those are very interesting arguments, and you're right. The plans for subway extensions I've seen--the ones most likely to materialize--don't even include a stop at Dundas and Hurontario, so it may be a bit of a moot point, but you may be right. My question is whether Dundas and Hurontario wouldn't be adequately served by a Hurontario LRT. I also think that the design of the rapid transit service to MCC will determine the form of its future growth. A subway line along Dundas to Hurontario and then north to Square One will direct most future development south along Hurontario. A regional rail diversion would direct more development to the west of Square One.
This is why I still like the idea of a full Bloor extension.[/QUOTE]
But what we're talking about here is not just sitting back and accepting the status quo planning that Metrolinx is doing. We're trying to shake up the way people think about these corridors. Unfortunately, it's a lot harder to explain regional rail, which is unfamiliar to Torontonians, compared with a standard subway extension. It's just like the DRL. If nobody talks about it or accepts a lower order of transit, it wouldn't happen. I've been pushing for the route for years and wrote that article that helped raise people's consciousness. Once it was implanted in people's minds, other people ran with the idea and certain forumers and others actively promoted the route until it became a serious consideration by decision-makers.
I see this just the same as Sheppard or the Scarborough RT refurbishment. People are settling for LRT or RT because that's what's being offered and what seems likely to happen. It's a tragedy because we all know that subway would provide much better service to that corridor.
Dan416
Senior Member
As I said before, I'm not against regional rail, and I think it could work. But converting all of GO to regional rail would be a far more daunting undertaking than a simple subway extension to MCC. A subway is far, far more achievable. It's simple to understand, and relatively simple to implement. Toronto has experience building subways, and if MT were willing to invest in it, it could happen.
Regional rail is unfamiliar to most of us. We ARE familiar with GO Transit. If all those things that I mentioned took place (electrification, diversion, etc) then it could even be a viable alternative to the car (in terms of speed). But to get to that point, we'd have to spend billions of dollars. GO electrifying all its lines is a good start. But beyond that there's still much that must be done. And can you imagine the NIMBYism from GO trains (even if it is lighter rolling stock, shorter, and electrified) running every 5 minutes? And we'd need a lot more trackage than we currently have on Milton I'd imagine. I doubt 3 tracks would be sufficient.
That said, I still don't think Kipling is a very good terminus for the subway. Consider that Bloor hasn't been extended in 20 years. I think it's about time it were. And the only real important stop that's next is MCC. Sherway could be skipped for all I care. TRZ suggested building a new Kipling station at Kipling & Bloor, and continuing the Bloor line along Bloor street instead of Dundas as was always assumed. It keeps the subway closer to MCC and closer to where people live. More people live on Bloor than Dundas for that section of Mississauga.
Regional rail is unfamiliar to most of us. We ARE familiar with GO Transit. If all those things that I mentioned took place (electrification, diversion, etc) then it could even be a viable alternative to the car (in terms of speed). But to get to that point, we'd have to spend billions of dollars. GO electrifying all its lines is a good start. But beyond that there's still much that must be done. And can you imagine the NIMBYism from GO trains (even if it is lighter rolling stock, shorter, and electrified) running every 5 minutes? And we'd need a lot more trackage than we currently have on Milton I'd imagine. I doubt 3 tracks would be sufficient.
That said, I still don't think Kipling is a very good terminus for the subway. Consider that Bloor hasn't been extended in 20 years. I think it's about time it were. And the only real important stop that's next is MCC. Sherway could be skipped for all I care. TRZ suggested building a new Kipling station at Kipling & Bloor, and continuing the Bloor line along Bloor street instead of Dundas as was always assumed. It keeps the subway closer to MCC and closer to where people live. More people live on Bloor than Dundas for that section of Mississauga.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
Sherway is the only thing between Islington and Hurontario and must not be skipped. There isn't now and probably never will be enough towers along Bloor to justify skipping Sherway...and future developments can be sited anywhere to justify any alignment, but Sherway cannot be moved. Feeder bus riders can access a line anywhere, too.
The *only* reason to skip Sherway would be to run the Bloor line to the airport, but that will never happen now.
GO is a poor substitute for the Yonge line & extension, but GO is (well, could be) a good substitute for a Bloor line & extension to Mississauga since it parallels and intercepts the GO line several times. Bloor should be extended to Sherway but there may not be a compelling case to go another 8km or so to MCC.
The *only* reason to skip Sherway would be to run the Bloor line to the airport, but that will never happen now.
GO is a poor substitute for the Yonge line & extension, but GO is (well, could be) a good substitute for a Bloor line & extension to Mississauga since it parallels and intercepts the GO line several times. Bloor should be extended to Sherway but there may not be a compelling case to go another 8km or so to MCC.
xtremesniper
Active Member
I obviously don't have the numbers for this, but out of pure experience, when a YRT/Viva bus unloads at the Finch terminal, I think a good 90% (if not more) of the ridership of that bus immediately heads for the subway tunnels... Even if it's just to go down to Sheppard, that's still subway usage.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
You're reinforcing my point and also forgetting about people that use the route along the way and get off before the subway. It all adds up when people are comparing X ridership of one route with X+758 riders of another, and concluding that the latter needs a subway because it has 758 more riders.
YRT's subway-taking percentage of bus route ridership is probably higher than the TTC's average, and although it is not 100% we don't have better official numbers.
Anth
Active Member
unimaginative2:
Hah, I did make it sound as if those things are naturally occurring phenomena. I was thinking more along the lines of how feasible it would be add/change stops by expropriating pieces of those industrial properties up against the rail corridor, the choice of which would be constrained by accessibility and operational impact on the whole line as well. But maybe that wouldn't be as difficult as it seems.
It also occurred to me that if the Hurontario and Dundas LRT lines are built as planned, transfers at Dundas and Hurontario could be mitigated for through passengers by a third route that could run continuously down Hurontario *and* Dundas to Kipling. Whether that kind of interlined operation is useful depends on what regional rail stops lie between Cooksville and Dixie and if it's worth the additional complexity.
Honestly, I'm still grappling with the interdependence of all these factors. So much chicken-and-egg and I think I'm seeing more clearly now that this really isn't as obvious as extending Yonge.
I guess the minimum for me would be intelligent LRT implementation, an MCC regional rail diversion, and a Bloor extension to Sherway. The drawbacks I mentioned would still be there, but more acceptable. I just wish I could be more optimistic about it!
Hah, I did make it sound as if those things are naturally occurring phenomena. I was thinking more along the lines of how feasible it would be add/change stops by expropriating pieces of those industrial properties up against the rail corridor, the choice of which would be constrained by accessibility and operational impact on the whole line as well. But maybe that wouldn't be as difficult as it seems.
It also occurred to me that if the Hurontario and Dundas LRT lines are built as planned, transfers at Dundas and Hurontario could be mitigated for through passengers by a third route that could run continuously down Hurontario *and* Dundas to Kipling. Whether that kind of interlined operation is useful depends on what regional rail stops lie between Cooksville and Dixie and if it's worth the additional complexity.
Honestly, I'm still grappling with the interdependence of all these factors. So much chicken-and-egg and I think I'm seeing more clearly now that this really isn't as obvious as extending Yonge.
I guess the minimum for me would be intelligent LRT implementation, an MCC regional rail diversion, and a Bloor extension to Sherway. The drawbacks I mentioned would still be there, but more acceptable. I just wish I could be more optimistic about it!
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I've gotta say I just don't think unfamiliarity is reason enough not to do something. Likewise, it doesn't make sense to do something inferior just because it's the way we've always done it. There are plenty of transit planners in Toronto (never mind bringing people in) who have been to Europe, ridden S-Bahn services in cities a fraction the size of Toronto, and understand how to build them.
There's no reason why the entire GO network would have to be rebuilt to implement regional rail in Mississauga. Just the Milton line. And it's quite reasonable to start there because Mississauga is easily the largest of the 905 municipalities.
As I've said, for real regional rail in the Toronto context on a shared corridor with freight railways, you'd need an additional two tracks. An dedicated two tracks on the entire Milton line would likely cost as much or less than a tunneled subway from Kipling to MCC.
The problem we're facing here is that everything is being done piecemeal. We're buying rolling stock separate from electrifying the lines separate from adding tracks. We need a comprehensive plan to build regional rail and divert from rail corridors to serve major destinations.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
The TTC is expropriating a whole block of Steeles to build its phantasmagorical bus terminal. It really wouldn't be that difficult. If anything, those industrial buildings would be redeveloped anyway, and it would allow for integrated development around stations. I'm no fan of master planning, but in the suburban industrial wasteland context, it makes sense.
That's definitely an option for local service parallel to the regional rail line. There's also no reason that Mississauga has to build LRT as poorly as the TTC. If they follow the Calgary model, it could provide quite a decent service.
Looking at the RTES study, the TTC's plan for a subway extension to Mississauga ran along the rail corridor anyway, more-or-less mirroring the diversion plan with stations at Dixie, Cawthra, Central Parkway and Square One. The only change would be an additional stop at Sherway. It wouldn't do much for Dundas either.
I just can't see a subway on Bloor happening if it means abandoning Kipling and Islington stations just when they're finally seeing significant redevelopment.
For me, that seems like a fairly ideal situation. Local riders in eastern Mississauga are served, riders at the 427 and Sherway are served by the subway, and all of Mississauga is served with regional rail.
Disparishun
Active Member
Right. This is something we should all be able to agree on. The total ridership of subway-interconnected routes is a theoretical upper limit for the total subway-bound ridership on those routes. That upper limit could be reached only if 100% of riders on subway-interconnected routes are bound for the subway. Clearly, something less than 100% are.
I'm not sure this has much bearing on the discussion, but the point is certainly a good one.
Disparishun
Active Member
I do not know what ridership of a REXified RH GO line -- I will try the term out; not sure too many people are familiar with what REX means (I wasn't), but maybe it works -- would look like.
However, it would certainly be much higher than that of the current RH GO line, which few people take because it's such a silly route. Seeking to massively increase its ridership by turning into an eastern-aligned north-south express line, thereby offloading the northern half of the Yonge line, is the whole point.
So, while you are probably right that running trains on the little-used RH GO line is right now a waste of money, I doubt that that would be true of a REXified RH line that did something useful with the already-existing tracks and ROW.
In terms of interconnection efficiency -- bus or light rail or whatever is a question of likely ridership, I'd have thought. Interconnection should be as smooth as possible between whatever modes are being run appropriately on the interconnecting lines.
In terms of peeling off -- riders will clearly have various destinations. The point of interconnecting different routes to form a grid, rather than doubling them up, is to increase efficiency and flexibility by allowing riders to create their own paths along the grid.
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
This is a good point. The TTC has basically engrained their craptastic vision for LRT into my mind as "this is what LRT is." A C-Train-like LRT could actually work quite well on Dundas, especially when combined with express service on Milton.
I think that the best way would be for LRT service on Dundas, which could actually afford to be Transit City-like LRT when combined with a rerouted underground all day, electrified Milton Line. They could probably even use an underground Milton tunnel to run local subway or underground LRT service on Dundas if they built it properly. Then, Subway could be run on Hurontario all the way up to Brampton, which I think is the most logical subway route. After reaching Brampton Go station, maybe even further, the route could be taken over by a Go Orangeville service which has rails which basically parallel Hurontario up to Orangeville, which could eventually be turned into a 20 minute headway express-ish service to Downtown Brampton.
As for Yonge Extension-Richmond Hill Go LRTization (what a mouthful!), both services are needed. However, I don't think that Richmond Hill Go needs to be totally LRT-ized. It just needs the basics to make service faster and for more trains on the line all day. Probably an extra stop on Queen and at Eglinton will be needed as well. If you ask me, it's perfect express route in terms of N-W routing. There are stations at Major Mackenzie (future Viva/RT route) Highway 7 (Viva Blue/Yonge Subway & Viva Purple) Finch/Hydro Corridor (Hydro Corridor Busway/LRT) Sheppard (Sheppard Subway) and future stations at Eglinton (Eglinton LRT or hopefully Subway) maybe a station at Don Mills (Don Mills LRT or hopefully DRL extension) and Queen (Queen Subway/DRL & King and Cherry Streetcars.) More stops would take away from it's ability to be an express service providing bypasses between these E-W lines.
kEiThZ
Superstar
For all to enjoy:
http://www.metrolinx.com/Docs/general/Yonge-North_FINAL_Executive_Summary.pdf
Interim BCA from Metrolinx on the extension.
http://www.metrolinx.com/Docs/general/Yonge-North_FINAL_Executive_Summary.pdf
Interim BCA from Metrolinx on the extension.