Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Amare]

This really should've been included in the Gardiner/Ontario Place deal that came out yesterday. I'm sure the city could've at least secured protecting for a Cummer Station at the very least.

 

[generalcanada]

The City is saying:

"We support building Cummer Station"

"We do not have the funds, nor feel it is our responsibility to pay for it"

"You, Ontario, decide; but here's the case for building it."

So it is what i thought. "we want it but we think you should pay for it not us"

 

[Northern Light]

So it is what i thought. "we want it but we think you should pay for it not us"

You are so contrarian to logic, so often.

The province is building the line, its their line, the station makes more sense than at least one, if not two of those they (the province) are building.

Why would the City be responsible to pay the province to build a station for which they (the province) are the owner, when the province is paying to build all the other stations?

That's illogical; just as it is that the City is on the hook paying for a bunch of GO Stations.

 

[generalcanada]

You are so contrarian to logic, so often.

The province is building the line, its their line, the station makes more sense than at least one, if not two of those they (the province) are building.

Why would the City be responsible to pay the province to build a station for which they (the province) are the owner, when the province is paying to build all the other stations?

That's illogical; just as it is that the City is on the hook paying for a bunch of GO Stations.

wait when did i say they shouldnt lol course metrolinx should build it LOL. where did you get that idea.

Im just poking fun at the fact the report boils down to "no, you pay for it" from city staff

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The province is building the line, its their line, the station makes more sense than at least one, if not two of those they (the province) are building.

Why would the City be responsible to pay the province to build a station for which they (the province) are the owner, when the province is paying to build all the other stations?

That's illogical; just as it is that the City is on the hook paying for a bunch of GO Stations.

Because in this instance (fair or not) the Province started off with a funding envelope and said they are doing 3 stations (Bridge, Steeles, High Tech) and then one of the others (Clark).. Then, politics being what it is, they said they'll use TOC revenues from Bridge and High Tech for Royal Orchard.

So Cummer fell between the tracks, not having as strong a business case as Clark and not having hte upset residents and/or TOC revenues that Royal Orchard had. And now all the money is gone.

So it's a bit unfair but I don't know that it's illogical. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.

(And BTW, in addition to the TOC fees unlike Toronto, York Region is contributing to the project so when you say "the Province is paying to build all the other stations," that's not entirely accurate. The same applies to saying it's the Province's line. No - it's TTC's line, it's just their project. It's not the same as GO.)

 

[allengeorge]

The City is saying:

"We support building Cummer Station"

"We do not have the funds, nor feel it is our responsibility to pay for it"

"You, Ontario, decide; but here's the case for building it."

This…feels like a losing strategy.

 

[allengeorge]

Because in this instance (fair or not) the Province started off with a funding envelope and said they are doing 3 stations (Bridge, Steeles, High Tech) and then one of the others (Clark).. Then, politics being what it is, they said they'll use TOC revenues from Bridge and High Tech for Royal Orchard.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I’ll believe these magic TOC revenues when I see it.

These numbers were handwaved into existence, and given the current interest rates and general construction climate, I don’t think we’ll see construction on any of this anytime soon, and I doubt the costs wills be recouped.

It’s purely a political play for York Region with a veneer of fiscal responsibility.

 

[Northern Light]

Because in this instance (fair or not) the Province started off with a funding envelope and said they are doing 3 stations (Bridge, Steeles, High Tech) and then one of the others (Clark).. Then, politics being what it is, they said they'll use TOC revenues from Bridge and High Tech for Royal Orchard.

So Cummer fell between the tracks, not having as strong a business case as Clark and not having hte upset residents and/or TOC revenues that Royal Orchard had. And now all the money is gone.

So it's a bit unfair but I don't know that it's illogical. It's just the way the cookie crumbles.

(And BTW, in addition to the TOC fees unlike Toronto, York Region is contributing to the project so when you say "the Province is paying to build all the other stations," that's not entirely accurate. The same applies to saying it's the Province's line. No - it's TTC's line, it's just their project. It's not the same as GO.)

The TTC could refuse to operate it; as it did the Finch and Eglinton LRTs and suddenly provincial money appears.

Or the province could build a station for under 200M.........

I think the province might want to pick the cheaper option.......

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

The TTC could refuse to operate it; as it did the Finch and Eglinton LRTs and suddenly provincial money appears.

Or the province could build a station for under 200M.........

That would be a nuclear option for the city and give the variably shifting municipal-provincial relations and electoral cycles, probably not as simple as you make it sound.

I don't really care about Cummer wither way - it's fine but not necessary IMHO - but since it's been only 24 hours since the province handed $1.2b to the city, I doubt they have another $200m to toss in the pot or that the city has more cards to play. If it was their priority, and if the province was amenable, it would be in the deal already. (A cynic could say Downtown Olivia Chow doesn't care about North York's station. I doubt it's that simple but again, it's not in deal either because she didn't push for it and/or Doug didn't want to vie) give it to her.)

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again: I’ll believe these magic TOC revenues when I see it.

These numbers were handwaved into existence, and given the current interest rates and general construction climate, I don’t think we’ll see construction on any of this anytime soon, and I doubt the costs wills be recouped.

It’s purely a political play for York Region with a veneer of fiscal responsibility.

The revenues definitely exist in a contract probably no one will ever see. And I don't know, on that basis, why you would assume they're tied entirely to construction.

Anyway, whether they were literally directed to the new station or whether it was more "poetic" is subject to speculation but yeah, no one disputes it was political

 

[Northern Light]

That would be a nuclear option for the city and give the variably shifting municipal-provincial relations and electoral cycles, probably not as simple as you make it sound.

I don't really care about Cummer wither way - it's fine but not necessary IMHO - but since it's been only 24 hours since the province handed $1.2b to the city, I doubt they have another $200m to toss in the pot or that the city has more cards to play. If it was their priority, and if the province was amenable, it would be in the deal already. (A cynic could say Downtown Olivia Chow doesn't care about North York's station. I doubt it's that simple but again, it's not in deal either because she didn't push for it and/or Doug didn't want to vie) give it to her.)


The revenues definitely exist in a contract probably no one will ever see. And I don't know, on that basis, why you would assume they're tied entirely to construction.

Anyway, whether they were literally directed to the new station or whether it was more "poetic" is subject to speculation but yeah, no one disputes it was political

LOL.........

I'm having fun.........

I''ll shh now.

 

[allengeorge]

The revenues definitely exist in a contract probably no one will ever see. And I don't know, on that basis, why you would assume they're tied entirely to construction.

I would be truly surprised if a builder (or a set of builders) handed over the TOC funds to the government before getting their inventory onto the market. When would you think the money will start to flow to the government? Now? After they get approvals? When?

I’m pushing back against your proposition that the Royal Orchard station is entirely covered by TOC revenues, because:

1. The submissions around these TOC sites were confidential, and to my knowledge no binding contracts were signed
2. As a result, all this TOC money is hypothetical, and even more so in this capital climate

It’s just striking that with these two factors in play you’re repeating Metrolinx’s talking points around funding uncritically.

 

[steviej1]

I would be truly surprised if a builder (or a set of builders) handed over the TOC funds to the government before getting their inventory onto the market. When would you think the money will start to flow to the government? Now? After they get approvals? When?

I’m pushing back against your proposition that the Royal Orchard station is entirely covered by TOC revenues, because:

1. The submissions around these TOC sites were confidential, and to my knowledge no binding contracts were signed
2. As a result, all this TOC money is hypothetical, and even more so in this capital climate

It’s just striking that with these two factors in play you’re repeating Metrolinx’s talking points around funding uncritically.

Suppose the TOC money does not cover the cost of a Royal Orchard Station. Does this mean that the government could reverse course and cancel the station due to lack of funding?

 

[allengeorge]

Suppose the TOC money does not cover the cost of a Royal Orchard Station. Does this mean that the government could reverse course and cancel the station due to lack of funding?

No - I really, really doubt it. It’s a political decision to build out Royal Orchard and tunnel the damn thing as deep as it is.

I just wish everyone - especially Metrolinx - was honest about this instead of trying to handwavily justify this as somehow fiscally neutral.

 

[Amare]

^Exactly this, well more particularly with respect to the massively unnecessary deep tunneling between Royal Orchard and the portal before Bridge station. For all the money that the province is pissing away to appease literally 50 homes, they could've used those same funds to protect for a Cummer station for instance.

Royal Orchard will go ahead no matter what because Metrolinx will justify it with their TOD numbers (however true/fudged they are), but the way they are going about justifying some of their reasoning is just plain BS simply put.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I would be truly surprised if a builder (or a set of builders) handed over the TOC funds to the government before getting their inventory onto the market. When would you think the money will start to flow to the government? Now? After they get approvals? When?

For a deal that size there is no way it flows all at once. So, yeah, probably some when they get the MZO and have their zoning locked in (seems weird to think no money would have changed hands at that point) and then more as various phases proceed, which could be approvals and/or construction. It's not being developed overnight, it's true but after all the greenbelt/MZO stuff that has gone on, I'm surprised you wouldn't appreciate how significant a milestone it is for a landowner simply to have the government instnatly turn their land from A into B; especially where B is dozens of towers, as high as 80 storeys.

I’m pushing back against your proposition that the Royal Orchard station is entirely covered by TOC revenues, because:

1. The submissions around these TOC sites were confidential, and to my knowledge no binding contracts were signed
2. As a result, all this TOC money is hypothetical, and even more so in this capital climate

I didn't say it was my proposition. It was the government's proposition and I said that either they are literally taking money from the 2 TOC sites to pay for it or it's a government shell game where they are not necessarily actually doing that but it's alll kinda sorta the same money and so maybe they're not actually doing that but it's a nice story to say they did X because of Y. Is it "entirely covered" by TOC revenue? Eh, who knows? Does it matter, really? If you get a raise and you buy yourself a nice watch, is that money coming from the "raise" part of your salary or did you just buy it because you felt a bit flush and knew that even though each paycheque is only a bit bigger, by the end of the year you'd have more money? Does it matter?

But you're definitely wrong about #1: you think the Province would make a deal with a huge development company (presumably for 100s of millions of $ if they're paying for subway stations) and then upzone their property, giving them billions of dollars in land value with the tacit understanding that the Province would eventually get a few pennies, without a binding contract? Without any money coming back off the top? No - that assumption is a bridge too far. The TOCs definitely have agreements and they're definitely binding and someone can try doing an FOI just so they get a response saying "it exists but we're not showing it to you" but it's because they are binding commercia;l agreements that you won't get to see it (see also: Therme).

So to tie it together - I'm not repeating Metrolinx's talking point and even if I was, I could do so confident that both your assumptions are somewhere between completely wrong and hugely unlikely.

At at the end of the day we have no idea if the Province is getting $100M or $900M or $50M or $450M or over how long they are getting it and so in that sense, yes, I'm sure they didn't just get a $500M cheque they cashed and immediately transfered to the Royal Orchard Station Bank Account (and it's not like that construction has started yet either) But even this bozo government knows how to sign deal with developers and get money. The Ontario Place situation is different, because it's an RFP, but you can already see that the government gets a quid pro quo for making it happen. To assume they went through the MZO process and neither signed a deal with the landowners nor got anything in return already is pretty out there, IMHO. Just reading the IO web page about how TOC works makes that seem impossible.