Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Chuck]

That's what I've been saying all along (sarcasm and the internet don't mix), I would have rather seen improved GO service before or even as a precurser to a subway extension. This way commuters would have grown accustomed to riding the GO train.

By your logic, the TTC should also not exist in Scarborough, which is served by over twice as many daily GO trips as all of York Region. Naturally, because the Lakeshore Line runs more frequently, and is far closer to Danforth than the Richmond Hill line is to Yonge, the Danforth subway was among the biggest mistakes in Toronto's history.

Obviously, it was not a mistake because subway and commuter serve different markets that by nature do not overlap. Like all large cities, Toronto has both options because it requires both options. Whether or not GO existed, and regardless of the type of service it provides, GO will never be able to service the hundreds of thousands of residents and jobs along Yonge that aren't even located downtown.

Perhaps 25% of the people who board the subway at Highway 7 will head downtown in peak periods, and even less in the off peak. GO is automatically not an option for maybe 75% of the people who will board the subway in York Region, and that number wouldn't budge even if GO ran every 5 minutes and took half as long as it does today.

 

[Fresh Start]

Except that York Region is already receiving a brand new subway line extension, coincidentally also terminating at Hwy 7. If demand levels are so great for trip-generators specifically right off the Yonge corridor that transit directed nowhere else can reasonably appease, then that would be reflected in the ridership stats, no? But if services were rerouted into new stations, new lines spanning the two regions were built and GO Transit were electrified, added in more stop and had fare integration- would those three occurences not lead dependability on the Yonge Line as a means of getting into the 416 to go down, seeing daily ridership dramatically plummet?

I say implement those first, then if they do not work, we extend the subway. Thornhill has about as much density as the Richview corridor yet the suggestion that we place a subway line there is laughed after, even though every stop has a condo/high-rise cluster and at the opposite end lies preexisting demand at the airport, ACC. Plus it would serve as a natural (i.e. heavily used) gateway into Square One. RHC meanwhile doesn't have an international airport or employment centres (beyond a temporary and conditional spike in construction related work) that I can think of to rationalize this subway.

A one-stop extend extension to Steeles met at platform level by a fully fare-integrated LRT line clear up Yonge Street to the greenbelt (19th-Gamble), although modest by contrast, benefits York Region far more than it would Toronto. What more could you ask for, and please don't say a cost-prohibitive RHC subway line extension.

 

[leopetr]

A one-stop extend extension to Steeles met at platform level by a fully fare-integrated LRT line clear up Yonge Street to the greenbelt (19th-Gamble), although modest by contrast, benefits York Region far more than it would Toronto. What more could you ask for, and please don't say a cost-prohibitive RHC subway line extension.

Why LRT on Yonge? York Region is already building BRT with exclusive transit-only medians down Yonge. BRT does take up more space, but there's plenty of space north of Steeles. The capacity advantages of LRT do not come into play at this point, since they are going for a full build-out of BRT already. LRT in York Region would be an orphan technology.

Yes, York Region wants both Don Mills and Jane LRT lines extended to Highway 7. Likely, they will be. But that's still a way off, and there would need to be tracks linking them to Yonge for fleet to be shared.

Finally, replacing part but not all of Viva Blue with a different surface technology is not a realistic option. Viva is popular. Newmarket residents would be quite upset at having an extra transfer, and there wouldn't be significant capacity or speed benefits.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Except that York Region is already receiving a brand new subway line extension, coincidentally also terminating at Hwy 7.

I'm sorry - this just made me laugh.
Yeah - it's a COINCIDENCE the lines end at Highway 7.
I bet when a group of English folk decided to start a city here on Lake Ontario there was someone who thought it was really lame to start another city on a body of water.

It's not a "coincidence," it's common sense.

Similarly, there is a reason to build transit to (and on) Highway 7. If there is a sense to having rapid transit running along Hwy 7 and Hwy 407 - and to intensifying along those corridors - and then building one end of the subway to connect with those lines, while stopping the other about 4 km short, well, I'd love to hear it.

The province has officially designated Yonge/7 as a major transit hub ("Union Station of the North," it's sometimes called) so I can't fathom why you would leave it out there by itself when the subway is so close by. That's how you build a network.

Saying "York is already getting a subway, so clearly it's unfair and/or riddiculous they should get another," is just an absurd argument.

If I had a nickel for everyone who knew how to spend the Yonge subway money or where transit in the GTA should go, I'd be a wealthy man.

There's not an argument here on P.80-whatever of this thread that hasn't been heard (and largely debunked) many times over. For the 10th time, I'll ask for a moratorium on "what should be done instead of the subway" posts. It's a thread about the subway - not about NOT the subway.

 

[xtremesniper]

Why LRT on Yonge? York Region is already building BRT with exclusive transit-only medians down Yonge. BRT does take up more space, but there's plenty of space north of Steeles. The capacity advantages of LRT do not come into play at this point, since they are going for a full build-out of BRT already. LRT in York Region would be an orphan technology.

Yes, York Region wants both Don Mills and Jane LRT lines extended to Highway 7. Likely, they will be. But that's still a way off, and there would need to be tracks linking them to Yonge for fleet to be shared.

Finally, replacing part but not all of Viva Blue with a different surface technology is not a realistic option. Viva is popular. Newmarket residents would be quite upset at having an extra transfer, and there wouldn't be significant capacity or speed benefits.

I don't know if I'd agree with the notion that there's "plenty" of space north of Steeles. There is at first, but once you get into the historic Thornhill portion, things get pretty narrow all the way until approaching the hydro corridor at the 407.

 

[Dan416]

By your logic, the TTC should also not exist in Scarborough, which is served by over twice as many daily GO trips as all of York Region. Naturally, because the Lakeshore Line runs more frequently, and is far closer to Danforth than the Richmond Hill line is to Yonge, the Danforth subway was among the biggest mistakes in Toronto's history.

Obviously, it was not a mistake because subway and commuter serve different markets that by nature do not overlap. Like all large cities, Toronto has both options because it requires both options. Whether or not GO existed, and regardless of the type of service it provides, GO will never be able to service the hundreds of thousands of residents and jobs along Yonge that aren't even located downtown.

I completely agree with this. That's why I support both higher GO frequencies along the Milton line and subway expansion to MCC (as well as on Yonge St).

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

This transcends the thread a bit, but Richmond Hill released its official preferred concept for RH Centre.

http://www.richmondhill.ca/documents/op_reg_centre_preferred_concept.pdf

I don't know how anyone can look at that and the Langstaff plan and deny the point of putting a subway terminus there....but then, what do I know?

"Anchor Mobility Hub" is the designation I've been unable to recall before.
Those slamming or otherwise picking apart the proposed subway should know that Places to Grow designates Yonge/7 as a growth node (adding approx 45K people, at that intersection alone) AND that Metrolinx sees it as an "Anchor Mobility Hub."

The former mandates a density of 200 ppl/jobs per hectare and the latter mandates double that and they are targeting 450/ha. And that's why it's absurd to have the subway terminating at Finch or Steeles. Period.

 

[unimaginative2]

Very striking plan. Once again, I'm very optimistic about these York Region subway extensions. It's fantastic that we're finally going to build neighbourhoods around rapid transit rather than vice versa.

 

[Second_in_pie]

TJ O'Pootertoot, is that 45k people just for the RH Centre, not including Langstaff?

Either way, it's an impressive plan. I'm impressed by their 52% transit ridership. Hopefully, as the reliable transit network in the region grows, it will allow that figure to grow even more. But only a 45% car reliance is pretty good.

 

[Fresh Start]

I'm sorry - this just made me laugh.
Yeah - it's a COINCIDENCE the lines end at Highway 7.
I bet when a group of English folk decided to start a city here on Lake Ontario there was someone who thought it was really lame to start another city on a body of water.

It's not a "coincidence," it's common sense.

Similarly, there is a reason to build transit to (and on) Highway 7. If there is a sense to having rapid transit running along Hwy 7 and Hwy 407 - and to intensifying along those corridors - and then building one end of the subway to connect with those lines, while stopping the other about 4 km short, well, I'd love to hear it.

The province has officially designated Yonge/7 as a major transit hub ("Union Station of the North," it's sometimes called) so I can't fathom why you would leave it out there by itself when the subway is so close by. That's how you build a network.

Saying "York is already getting a subway, so clearly it's unfair and/or riddiculous they should get another," is just an absurd argument.

If I had a nickel for everyone who knew how to spend the Yonge subway money or where transit in the GTA should go, I'd be a wealthy man.

There's not an argument here on P.80-whatever of this thread that hasn't been heard (and largely debunked) many times over. For the 10th time, I'll ask for a moratorium on "what should be done instead of the subway" posts. It's a thread about the subway - not about NOT the subway.

It's a pity that David Miller wasn't your guy's mayor and then it would be you having to contend with a citywide network of LRT lines. I suspect that Vaughan/Markham/Richmond Hill has the right mid-size population densities to do fine with it (unlike places like the downtown core, Eglinton or large swaths of Scarborough). A line clear across the Hwy 7 corridor and one on or adjacent to Yonge from the subway up to 19th Avenue could also be regarded as visionary and long-term planning ahead. As well lines along Jane, Don Mills-Leslie, Warden and McCowan.

I just think that demanding a subway extension right away- that likely will cost as much as the sum of all those BRT/LRTs- is settling, when in reality there should be several alternate methods already in place prior to subway expansion for York Regioners to get into the 416, beginning with enhanced GO service and doing away with double-fares to cross the city limits. Not just funneling the bulk of commuter onto Yonge.

I'm happy for you guys still. RHC extension is very well publicized and will likely go through. I just wish it wouldn't impact so heavily on carrying capacity of train trips further south on the subway, that's all. We need to fix the foundation first before thinking about adding on a new floor.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

I just think that demanding a subway extension right away- that likely will cost as much as the sum of all those BRT/LRTs- is settling, when in reality there should be several alternate methods already in place prior to subway expansion for York Regioners to get into the 416, beginning with enhanced GO service and doing away with double-fares to cross the city limits. Not just funneling the bulk of commuter onto Yonge.

I'm happy for you guys still. RHC extension is very well publicized and will likely go through. I just wish it wouldn't impact so heavily on carrying capacity of train trips further south on the subway, that's all. We need to fix the foundation first before thinking about adding on a new floor.

I don't think it's a question of "demanding" a subway. I think it's simply that the province can't force the municipalities to do all this intensification and then not provide the necessary infrastructure.

To use your metaphor...
I don't disagree the foundation could use work but I think it's more like a big reno with a lot of elements going in at the same time and there's little point really quibbling about whether to do the basement before adding another floor.
If you just found out your wife is pregnant with triplets, and her six siblings are also moving in (for some strange, metaphorical reason) it's pretty clear you NEED that second floor soon - not matter how bad the basement is. Any way you slice it, it's going to be a bumpy ride 'til everything's in place.

 

[lead82]

I agree, it's not an either we relieve Yonge line south of Eglinton or extend north to Highway 7, but rather BOTH are needed. In which order is debatable, but generally speaking they are both necessary and should be built in the next 10 years (or at least begin construction).

Problem is as always funding. Metrolinx better get their act together and propose a solid funding plan by tolls or extra gas taxes, etc.. We need the transit dollars yesterday. The longer we wait, the more expensive it gets.


As for Yonge extension, it is badly needed as traffic between Hwy 7 and Finch is terrible and very heavy most of the day. The good thing about RHC is that it is a mixed development, so it will have ridership going the other way as well to work in RHC or close by Markham Centre.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Didn't you get the memo? Subway automatically makes everything pedestrian friendly!

Yes, it is true that subways automatically make everything more pedestrian friendly. That's why it's so great that so much development is slated to be positioned within walking distance of stations along the Yonge extension (or already exists, as is the case with a few stations). With more pedestrians, an area can only be more pedestrian friendly. Everything from curb designs, traffic signals, paved/lit/ploughed paths, and landscaping and massing considerations, to the behaviour of drivers, to the kind of retail along main streets near the station...all this benefits from sheer volumes of pedestrians and sheer numbers can overcome many design flaws, even in suburbia.

 

[Second_in_pie]

^^ I think Woodbridge_Heights was being sarcastic, but I agree with you that in one way or another, subway makes an area more pedestrian-friendly. Things definitely can't solely rely on subway to be walkable, pedestrian-friendly and nice in general, but a subway can definitely help, or at least kick-start things.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

^^ I think Woodbridge_Heights was being sarcastic, but I agree with you that in one way or another, subway makes an area more pedestrian-friendly. Things definitely can't solely rely on subway to be walkable, pedestrian-friendly and nice in general, but a subway can definitely help, or at least kick-start things.

Uh, yeah, he was being sarcastic, but that only emphasized how wrong he was. The subway extension actually *will* make the area more pedestrian friendly.