Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

Something of an update as opposed to 416/905 argument...

http://www.yorkregion.com/article/96568

Regional News
September 16, 2009 11:56 AM


David Fleischer
Despite an unclear future, plans to bring the Yonge subway up to York Region are moving forward on several fronts.

“Metrolinx has made it clear that they are not in a position to fund work on this project for the foreseeable future,†one of the reports reviewed last week by the region’s Rapid Transit Board states.

That’s the bad news.

The good news is the region is doing what it can to be ready when funding does arrive.

“Is there anything else that we need to be doing that keeps our case compelling, to get the Yonge subway extended up to Hwy. 7?†asked Markham Mayor Frank Scarpitti.

At the heart of discussions was the benefits case analysis released by Metrolinx over the summer.

The analysis compared proposed subways operating with six or five stations to the region’s initial plan of running Viva buses along the 6.8-kilometre stretch.

While bus rapid transit would cost only 10 per cent of a subway’s $2.4 billion, it would not not meet the corridor’s capacity demands, the report concludes.

A subway with six stations would take 14 minutes to get from Hwy. 7 to Finch Station while bus would take 17 minutes.

The report also touts the superior environmental, economic, land development and community impacts of a subway.

It estimates the incremental value of land development at between $500 million and $1.2 billion with a subway, compared to $32 to $65-million for the bus system.

“It clearly states that (bus) is not a longterm solution,†Viva spokesperson Dale Albers said.

Metrolinx is reviewing a series of interlocking transit projects —including automated subway signalization and a downtown Toronto subway — as part of its considerations which are expected to take until the end of the year.

“From our point of view, we’re maintaining a very close, strong relationship with Metrolinx ... to make sure our case is as strong at it can be,†Mr. Fisch said.

One aspect that has been finalized is where to place a new rail yard to hold the trains required for the extension.

The TTC is looking at a tail track in Richmond Hill that can store up to 14 trains.

The subway extension to Hwy. 7 was one of the top 15 transit projects announced by the province in 2006, but, with virtually all of the initial $11.5 million now spent, and no sign the federal government will step in, the project is now in limbo.

The board wants to hire a firm to help them lead a strategic campaign to engage the upper levels of government.

With the looming possibility of a fall federal election, the region wants to make sure its message about the subway’s necessity is out there.

Funds for hiring a consultant are already in Viva’s budget, Mr. Fisch said.

Mr. Fisch, Mr. Scarpitti and Vaughan Mayor Linda Jackson are set to appear before the federal budget committee next month; at least as long as an election is not called before then.

In the meantime, regional council will decide on approving $4.3 million to move forward with a conceptual design assessment. It will allow them to complete more detailed work so the project can be shovel-ready.

“We do need to continuously update our business case for this project, why it was in the top 15 and why it should be in the next list of projects approved,†Viva vice-president Mary Frances Turner said.

The region is responsible for 75 per cent of the work that is shared with the TTC.

Based on that, 75 per cent of the line will be on the region’s side of the border.

While the funds will come from regional reserves, it is hoped they will be recovered from the provincial and federal governments later.

The region’s Rapid Transit/Public Private Partnership Steering Committee has been replaced by a board incorporated under the Business Corporations Act.

Starting this month, the decision-making board includes Mayors Linda Jackson, Dave Barrow, Frank Scarpitti and Tony Van Bynen, along with regional chairperson Bill Fisch.

While the newly-configured board is not obligated to hold public meetings or continue to meet at the region’s Newmarket headquarters, it will continue to do so for the
time being.
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I think the subway should be extended to Steeles (at least). The new Steeles terminus station could accomodate a lot of bus routes as well as maybe a York region LRT that continues north on Yonge to Hgwy 7 at least. Maybe an LRT like Edmonton's would be more suitable for the density of Yonge north of Steeles. With a subway, LRT and a number of bus routes-the Steeles station could become an important transit hub for the TTC and YRT.
 
There is nothing special about Steeles. The densest part of Yonge ends just north of Finch station at Cummer. Steeles only has a minor mall. More people live in a walking distance from Clark than at Steeles. Anyone who suggests an extension to Steeles but not beyond is warranted is taking a Toronto-centric view of transit planning. An extension to Steeles doesn't eliminate many transfers and only the two Steeles busses eliminate travel on Yonge. An extension to Langstaff serves the GO train station, the 407 busway, multiple VIVA routes, and eliminates the need for a lot of YRT buses to travel down Yonge as well as eliminating the need for the Steeles busses to travel on Yonge. There is no point going through the process of getting project managers, boring machines, construction equipment, etc, etc to only build an extension to Steeles which does nothing but provide a minor improvement to the Steeles busses.
 
GTS said:
I think the subway should be extended to Steeles (at least). The new Steeles terminus station could accomodate a lot of bus routes as well as maybe a York region LRT that continues north on Yonge to Hgwy 7 at least. Maybe an LRT like Edmonton's would be more suitable for the density of Yonge north of Steeles. With a subway, LRT and a number of bus routes-the Steeles station could become an important transit hub for the TTC and YRT.
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Given local travel patterns, have you considered a subway extension to Cummer, with reserved bus lanes between Cummer and Clark, and an Edmonton-style LRT between Clark and 7? This could then connect with a more long-haul commuter-oriented big-bus system at 7 heading north to 16th, which would then have seamless interconnections with local Yonge buses near the Oak Ridges/Aurora town line.

With integrated fares pegged to postal code (you would pay to get off and get on according to how much money people living in your postal code had paid in fares and thus, contributed their share to transit, during the previous fiscal year) this could be a promising regional counterpart to the Transfer City plan taking place in Toronto. Anyone riding the Cummer-Clark reserved buses right across the important Steeles boundary -- I am told this would be very rare -- would, of course, disembark temporarily to confer with customs agents and avoid an authorized 416/905 breach.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Everyone is so worried about people in Richmond Hill itself, beyond the last station, that they forget about the other hundreds of thousands of people, especially those between Finch and Hwy 7 in the Yonge and Bathurst corridors, that will form the bulk of the Yonge extension's ridership. Chuck was not talking about Richmond Hill residents, he was talking about all of York Region...but there are no GO stations in York Region along the RH line south of Richmond Hill, and even if you added some, they'd be pretty useless to a huge number of people.
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I think most people don't realize that it's not just serving York Region residents trying to get to Toronto, it would also serve Toronto residents going to York Region.

The amount of Toronto citizens working above Steeles has skyrocketed as of late, but again, most people seem to conveniently overlook that trend.
 
Ansem said:
and off course York citizens are paying through their taxes to help maintain the TTC subways annually

Are they?
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Transit funding is changing, Ansem. It's precisely the logic behind your post that is being disassembled because people (including politicians) who say, "OUR transit system is funded by OUR taxpayers," with zero appreciation how people take it between municipalities are effectively living in the stone age.

Or maybe we should do this - Anyone who lives outside 416 should get special tokens and passes to ensure that when they use TTC their fare goes to their HOME transit system?

No - people move across the region and as big as the TTC is, it's just one part of that. Things will be a lot clearer when Metrolinx starts running the subway and begins implementing road tolls and other REGIONAL tax levies.

In the meantime, you can ride the wave or beat the dead "416$ for 416 Transit!" horse until reality catches up.

Besides - I think Disparishun has put this thread to rest. Dude nailed it and there is nothing more to say, is there?
 
TJ O'Pootertoot said:
Transit funding is changing, Ansem. It's precisely the logic behind your post that is being disassembled because people (including politicians) who say, "OUR transit system is funded by OUR taxpayers," with zero appreciation how people take it between municipalities are effectively living in the stone age.

Or maybe we should do this - Anyone who lives outside 416 should get special tokens and passes to ensure that when they use TTC their fare goes to their HOME transit system?

No - people move across the region and as big as the TTC is, it's just one part of that. Things will be a lot clearer when Metrolinx starts running the subway and begins implementing road tolls and other REGIONAL tax levies.

In the meantime, you can ride the wave or beat the dead "416$ for 416 Transit!" horse until reality catches up.

Besides - I think Disparishun has put this thread to rest. Dude nailed it and there is nothing more to say, is there?
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Are you that surprised that some Torontonians would resist extensions outside their city when it's their taxes will be paying for the extra maintenance cost?

Why not implemented that system of sharing costs first?
 
The subway is actually profitable for the TTC so the above is not true at all.

In fact they're paying for all the construction costs in York region.
 
^^ Ansem, as a 416er I say we need this. You really have no idea how many northern Toronto residents work in Markham, Richmond Hill and Vaughan do you? Don't they deserve good transit to be able get to and from work given that they pay for the system through fares and taxes?

Yes, York region does not currently collect funding for the TTC through it's taxes. And that's because the subway does not go there today. But they'll be pitching in when the extension gets built. Moreover, this bun fight has several corollaries. Right now York region does not get a say in how the subway system is run. As presently planned, they'll be paying for their share of the extension and associated operating costs but still won't get a say in how the system is run. The TTC could cut service to York in half after the extension is built and York would have zero input on that decision. If you really want them to start pitching in for the operating costs of the entire subway system than they rightfully deserve seats on the Transit Commission. Are you willing to have transit policy decided by York Region politicians?

Metrolinx was created to avoid these kinds of fights and facilitate co-operation. We are in a transistion phase and things are going to change. These extensions are a good indicator of that. The TTC and York region and the province through Metrolinx are co-operating on construction costs, operating costs, other capital costs, etc. So why are you opposed to it? Why are you still harping about York region paying its share when there's plenty of evidence already in this thread that they will?
 
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taal said:
The subway is actually profitable for the TTC so the above is not true at all.

In fact they're paying for all the construction costs in York region.
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I didn't know that the TTC was in it for profit! LOL

The TTC profitable???? really???

There's a difference between construction costs and maintenance.

Construction= 1 time

Maintenance is annually...being paid by Toronto taxpayers... The extra cost that the TTC and city hall will have to pay could have went to upgrades subway stations and improve many bus routes.

You can't expect TTC and Toronto to be happy about extensions being forced on them without anything regarding maintenance costs increasing.

In Montreal, 82 suburbs pays their share of Montreal metro maintenance cost. In exchange, the metro was recognize as a Metropolitain equipment. The time where Montreal would resist a metropolitain view of public transit was over.

-They have an integrated fare system (one card for many transit agency in the regions)

-Extensions made easier to suburbs

We all want that here too. I do. But not talking about maintenance cost being share will automatically make the TTC and Torontonians view the subways as their property alone.
 
GTS said:
I think the subway should be extended to Steeles (at least). The new Steeles terminus station could accomodate a lot of bus routes as well as maybe a York region LRT that continues north on Yonge to Hgwy 7 at least. Maybe an LRT like Edmonton's would be more suitable for the density of Yonge north of Steeles. With a subway, LRT and a number of bus routes-the Steeles station could become an important transit hub for the TTC and YRT.
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As a temporary solution, extending the subway just to Steeles is a good idea, since the funding is in short supply. Not for the reasons of the stupid 416 - 905 rivalry, but since that part of Yonge is the most clogged with buses.

Bus routes north of Steeles are VIVA Blue and Pink, GO, 99, 77, 5, and 2. South of Steeles, it is all of the above, plus TTC's 60, 53, 42, 125, and YRT's 91, 88, 23 - at least twice as many buses in total.

The small scale of such project should not be an issue, since the workers and equipment including TBMs can be shifted to Yonge from the TYSSE project once they are no longer needed there.

In the longer term, although LRT could handle the demand north of Steeles, subway extension to HWy 7 would be better for network connectivity.
 
I think Keith lays it all out pretty simply. With all due respect, Ansem, you're living in the past.

First, your fixation on maintenance costs is a bit weird...it's the same trains and the same system, it's just running about 4 km further. I mean, there's no customs checkpoint down underground there. Did a maintenance man harm a family member or something?

Anyway, it is precisely because there is a simplistic logic to what you are saying that there has so far been no subway to Steeles to date and it is precisely because of that argument that Metrolinx served notice to all the transit authorities they will be effectively funding, operating and owning ALL the new lines that get built.

If I were King of the TTC I probably wouldn't want to share with others but that's why Metrolinx exists; to make sure all the fiefdoms work TOGETHER to help people who take transit.

As Keith has shown, and as Metrolinx has said, the extension will NOT be paid for by Toronto taxpayers and yet Toronto taxpayers will reap both the parking and fare revenues as well as the economic benefits of having 905ers come work/play in Toronto.

Your Montreal example is perfect because that is the regional funding system we are moving towards, even if the TTC comes kicking and screaming. It's not an IF, it's not even a WHEN. It's happening. Presto - an integrated fare card - will be in use before the subway opens, further mitigating your argument. SO, both things you're asking for will be there, right?

Does that satisfy you at all or do you wish to persist?
 
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Ansem said:
There's a difference between construction costs and maintenance.

Construction= 1 time
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Although the TTC does not break down costs, most of us suspect that based on usage that cost recovery for the subway network is over 100%. That means it's profitable. The big money drain for the TTC is the bus network....though that's needed to feed the subway.

This is why I support merging the subway network with GO and letting the TTC charge full prices for the bus and giving everybody fair prices for the subway.
 
^ I would not base the argument on the 416 vs 905 municipal taxes:

1) Provincially collected taxes are paying for the construction. It is a huge cost and the maintenance costs would have to accumulate for decades before they match the cost of construction. But that time, we will certainly have an integrated fare system.

2) 905-ers are not paying Toronto's municiplat taxes, but they are contributing to the profitability of their employers located in Toronto, as well as retail, restaurants and other establishments.

3) As some have mentioned already, a growing number of 416-ers are working in 905 - and we don't expect them to support 905's transit system through their municipal taxes, either.
 
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