Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Amare]

Oh, it's these old chestnuts getting dusted off?

First Toronto is paying ZERO towards the YNSE and York Region is paying a pro-rated share of the costs.
So that takes care of that.

But what are these places - Toronto, Richmond Hill etc. - in your mind, except places where people pay taxes that don't go to the other place? I know that you know people from Richmond Hill work in Toronto and people from Toronto work in Richmond Hill. They go to restaurants in both places, they drive in both places and on and on . The notion that transit systems should stop, not where riders stop, but where your taxes stop is so old, the infrastructure we're talking about might as well be horse-and-buggy.

You can say it's "cute and all" but the only thing required to shoot a big smoking hole in the logic would be for the Province to say, "all regional funding goes through us." I'm not saying they're going to say that - but you have to ask yourself what the fundamental goal of transit is for us, as riders. Personally (and I 've used this example before) I've never seen anything in my life as perverse as transit riders standing at Yonge and Steeles, watching half-full YRT buses go past them so they can wait to get on a crowded TTC bus because it's effectively illegal for YRT to pick up "TTC riders." But they're not "TTC riders." They're not "Toronto taxpayers," they're just transit users and should be treated as such.

Unquestionably the funding mechanisms need to be fixed and it's shameful that Metrolinx did two studies about fare integration and the Liberals trashed them both. But York Region is paying the capital costs in this instance so let's not use that as an excuse for disincentivizing transit use or making for a worse ridership experience. Let's not say, "Why should my taxes go to help those people," as if you don't work in the same commutershed, the same real estate market, the same economic development region. Better transit is to everyone's benefit - not just people in both municipalities but also drivers. And if drivers used this same logic they'd say, "Why should my taxes go to TTC when I never use it?"

So let's not do that. Let's just keep demanding Metrolinx be empowered to fix this because cross-municipal travel is becoming more common, not less, and it serves no one to be parochial about it.

IMHO.

Yes that's correct, the province and York Region will be paying up for the capital costs. The operating costs will almost be certainly be picked up by Toronto to some degree, there's no way they are letting the TTC let off the hook (unless the province agrees to subsidize 100% of the cost which I highly doubt they would do).

Metrolinx and the province seem to have issues committing to fixing inter-regional transit operations. Something as simple as making an amendment to the City of Toronto act to allow for Mississauga to operate their buses in Toronto while picking up customers is apparently like building a space shuttle to them, so to any movement on a wider scale is almost just wishful thinking at this point unfortunately. So until they get serious about fixing the issue, the funding elephant will always be in the room so to speak

I think though that eventually a line can become to long and we start hitting the law of diminishing returns. Ultimately public transit needs to compete with the car and show that it is the faster option, if it can't than potential riders will just turn to the car. Ultimately while development may come to places like Richmond Hill I doubt it will have any serious impact on the number of York Region residents taking the subway into downtown Toronto for work. The subway isn't set up for express and skip stop service so someone getting on in Aurora will have no choice but to ride the train making all stops between aurora and downtown, at that point the car becomes a far more convenient option. On top of this the Richmond Hill GO Line won't be seeing any real improvement from GO RER which gets rid of the idea of shunting downtown bound riders from York Region off of the subway. I would use the A train in New York as an example as that line is stupidly long yet you can get from Far Rockaway to Manhattan in about an hour or so since those trains run express through Brooklyn skipping most stops. If the subway was set up to have express trains, or even if the Richmond Hill line would be getting 15 minute all day service than this wouldn't be an issue. As it stands now though it is an issue that hinders us from extending the subway to far out.

And that's another point to raise. There comes a point in time where extending a subway just becomes asinine, and using the existing inter-regional transit system becomes a lot more beneficial. With all the amounts of money we're spending on this subway, the Richmond Hill GO line can have a big chunk of its issues fixed to the point of allowing it to become more than just an off-peak line. Unfortunately our genius politicians dont think that way, and it's always subways, subways, subways.

 

[44 North]

You say that as if extending it north is necessarily a bad thing?

It's an expensive thing.

Because at that point it becomes the jurisdiction of Metrolinx and/or York Region. Why is it up to the TTC to provide local service to those up in Richmond Hill.

The more this gets extended upwards, the more municipalities will start asking for the subway to be extended further and further up. Next thing you know, Aurora will start asking for the Yonge subway to be extended.

I remember when TYSSE was only partially constructed and years from opening that Vaughan was already pushing for an extension to Major Mack or some unbelievable distance. All the while "Viva Silver" was in their plans doing the same thing smh. Issue is now that political parties are controlling extensions these types of zany decisions from non-urban areas are much more likely to be catered to. Chance to win a riding or election for only a measly few $Billion and tens of $Million annually in perpetuity? Done deal!

 

[ARG1]

It's an expensive thing

If the tracks are already reaching 16th Avenue, just build some platforms, a station building, and you're good to go.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Metrolinx and the province seem to have issues committing to fixing inter-regional transit operations. Something as simple as making an amendment to the City of Toronto act to allow for Mississauga to operate their buses in Toronto while picking up customers is apparently like building a space shuttle to them, so to any movement on a wider scale is almost just wishful thinking at this point unfortunately. So until they get serious about fixing the issue, the funding elephant will always be in the room so to speak

Agreed. I just think our focus should be on demanding these changes rather than allowing the divisions they create to become more entrenched.
It's more constructive to argue we should have some sort of regional fare integration to ensure York Region is paying its fair share than to point out it's "unfair" for York Region to have the subway before that happens. One might hope that building subways and "SmartTrack" across the 416/905 lines will force the government's hand at some point.

And that's another point to raise. There comes a point in time where extending a subway just becomes asinine, and using the existing inter-regional transit system becomes a lot more beneficial. With all the amounts of money we're spending on this subway, the Richmond Hill GO line can have a big chunk of its issues fixed to the point of allowing it to become more than just an off-peak line. Unfortunately our genius politicians dont think that way, and it's always subways, subways, subways.

I don't think Richmond Hill (Highway 7) is that point - but I agree that point isn't so far away. I'm repeating myself (but aren't we all, on this thread?) but there is a continguous intensification corridor from the 401 up to the 407. These days, it actually goes pretty solidly up to Major Mac and if you were an extremist, you could argue maybe that this would be the sensible northern limit for a subway. Certainly the density tails off substantially after you pass historic Richmond Hill and head to the moraine. But even Major Mac isn't something I'd argue for today. (And it's a bit similar on the west side of Line 1, where you could try to argue for going up to Wonderland/the new hospital - not that I would - but north of there is definitely beyond the pale.)

 

[JSF-1]

I don't think Richmond Hill (Highway 7) is that point - but I agree that point isn't so far away. I'm repeating myself (but aren't we all, on this thread?) but there is a continguous intensification corridor from the 401 up to the 407. These days, it actually goes pretty solidly up to Major Mac and if you were an extremist, you could argue maybe that this would be the sensible northern limit for a subway. Certainly the density tails off substantially after you pass historic Richmond Hill and head to the moraine. But even Major Mac isn't something I'd argue for today. (And it's a bit similar on the west side of Line 1, where you could try to argue for going up to Wonderland/the new hospital - not that I would - but north of there is definitely beyond the pale.)

Still though we have to be aware of the law of diminishing returns at play here. The longer the line becomes, the more inconvenient it becomes since it has no skip-stop/express service ability. Without a strong and rapid Richmond Hill line the subway will inevitably have become a line trying to do two different things at once. On one hand it will be a local service serving York Region that residents can use, on the other hand it will become a pseudo-commuter service being used to shunt workers into Downtown Toronto. As we consider expanding the subway further into the suburbs we cannot forget that GO exists, because the subway isn't designed to be a commuter rail substitute as it doesn't have the capacity nor the capabilty to offer anything more then a local service making all stops. For someone commuting from Major Mackenzie into Downtown the possibly hour long ride on a train that makes multiple stops while getting more crowded as it goes can be a song and dance that wears thin really quickly.

 

[ARG1]

Still though we have to be aware of the law of diminishing returns at play here. The longer the line becomes, the more inconvenient it becomes since it has no skip-stop/express service ability. Without a strong and rapid Richmond Hill line the subway will inevitably have become a line trying to do two different things at once. On one hand it will be a local service serving York Region that residents can use, on the other hand it will become a pseudo-commuter service being used to shunt workers into Downtown Toronto. As we consider expanding the subway further into the suburbs we cannot forget that GO exists, because the subway isn't designed to be a commuter rail substitute as it doesn't have the capacity nor the capabilty to offer anything more then a local service making all stops. For someone commuting from Major Mackenzie into Downtown the possibly hour long ride on a train that makes multiple stops while getting more crowded as it goes can be a song and dance that wears thin really quickly.

Don't forget though that according to Metrolinx' documents, the travel time equilibrium of Line 1 and the Richmond Hill Line after YNSE opens will be Queen Station. This means if your destination is Queen Station or North of that, it will be faster to take the subway rather than take the Richmond Hill Line. While travel time is definitely a concern here, its not as much of a concern at this stage.

 

[tsm1072]

Still though we have to be aware of the law of diminishing returns at play here. The longer the line becomes, the more inconvenient it becomes since it has no skip-stop/express service ability. Without a strong and rapid Richmond Hill line the subway will inevitably have become a line trying to do two different things at once. On one hand it will be a local service serving York Region that residents can use, on the other hand it will become a pseudo-commuter service being used to shunt workers into Downtown Toronto. As we consider expanding the subway further into the suburbs we cannot forget that GO exists, because the subway isn't designed to be a commuter rail substitute as it doesn't have the capacity nor the capabilty to offer anything more then a local service making all stops. For someone commuting from Major Mackenzie into Downtown the possibly hour long ride on a train that makes multiple stops while getting more crowded as it goes can be a song and dance that wears thin really quickly.

How they deal with this in the next regional transportation plan will be interesting. With the current design, a further extension of line 1 to Richmond Hill GO will be fairly cheap and could be a good idea to serve more local trips (Richmond Hill to North York, Richmond Hill to Don Mills). But, you want to ensure you leave enough corridor space for increased GO service on the RH line, and put some funding towards upgrading the RH line for increased speeds and frequencies. Given the focus on the improved transfers at Bridge, I would think GO upgrades would be a better investment to alleviate the demand on line 1 and provide some redundancy.

 

[Amare]

Don't forget though that according to Metrolinx' documents, the travel time equilibrium of Line 1 and the Richmond Hill Line after YNSE opens will be Queen Station. This means if your destination is Queen Station or North of that, it will be faster to take the subway rather than take the Richmond Hill Line. While travel time is definitely a concern here, its not as much of a concern at this stage.

That is, assuming one doesnt get caught up in one of the many incessant TTC delays along the way down/up. If Richmond Hill was an peak service line, the advantage would be quite more substantial as the change of one getting delayed would be drastically reduced.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Don't forget though that according to Metrolinx' documents, the travel time equilibrium of Line 1 and the Richmond Hill Line after YNSE opens will be Queen Station. This means if your destination is Queen Station or North of that, it will be faster to take the subway rather than take the Richmond Hill Line. While travel time is definitely a concern here, its not as much of a concern at this stage.

I think both things are true. Obviously there are diminishing returns if you extend the subway forever (particularly since, yes, we don't have a parallel line and so a snag somewhere really messes up Line 1). Personally, i think:
a) Highway 7 is a perfect, natural terminus (and Steeles never would have been) and Major Mac is a bridge too far and
b) anyone who thinks "People north of Steeles should really be taking the RH GO" don't understand the actual, existing travel patterns or the actual transit services involved.

It's natural we keep coming back to, "Oooh, should they go further?" now that we know the "It should only go to Steeles" crowd has nothing to chew on anymore. But no one is seriously advocating for going further in the next generation. As far as fantasy maps go, one can pencil it in with a lot more ammo than Elgin Mills, but it's still a fantasy, IMHO.

 

[ARG1]

That is, assuming one doesnt get caught up in one of the many incessant TTC delays along the way down/up. If Richmond Hill was an peak service line, the advantage would be quite more substantial as the change of one getting delayed would be drastically reduced.

Technically a possibility, but that seems to only be a major concern on weekday rush hours - when the RH line is running. Other than that, its not common enough to pose a major issue in most cases. Granted this is based off my anecdotal experience riding Line 1 from Finch.

 

[44 North]

I think both things are true. Obviously there are diminishing returns if you extend the subway forever (particularly since, yes, we don't have a parallel line and so a snag somewhere really messes up Line 1). Personally, i think:
a) Highway 7 is a perfect, natural terminus (and Steeles never would have been) and Major Mac is a bridge too far and
b) anyone who thinks "People north of Steeles should really be taking the RH GO" don't understand the actual, existing travel patterns or the actual transit services involved.

It's natural we keep coming back to, "Oooh, should they go further?" now that we know the "It should only go to Steeles" crowd has nothing to chew on anymore. But no one is seriously advocating for going further in the next generation. As far as fantasy maps go, one can pencil it in with a lot more ammo than Elgin Mills, but it's still a fantasy, IMHO.

What are you going on about? It's in York Region's TMP to go further, and Vaughan was literally advocating to go further only a few years ago. A far cry from "no one".

 

[ARG1]

What are you going on about? It's in York Region's TMP to go further, and Vaughan was literally advocating to go further only a few years ago. A far cry from "no one".

We were discussing the Yonge side here, but for the Vaughan Side, if we were to use some cheaper form of construction like Cut and Cover, I think we could justify extending the Vaughan Side to Major Mack easily. A massive mall, Canada's Wonderland, and a massive Hospital all served.

 

[robmausser]

We were discussing the Yonge side here, but for the Vaughan Side, if we were to use some cheaper form of construction like Cut and Cover, I think we could justify extending the Vaughan Side to Major Mack easily. A massive mall, Canada's Wonderland, and a massive Hospital all served.

I think it should just be elevated along Jane. Tons of room on that road corridor.

 

[north-of-anything]

I think it should just be elevated along Jane. Tons of room on that road corridor.

Up to around Teston Road, where it swings west and follows the 400 to Highway 9.

 

[Transportfan]

Yonge North Subway Extension - What Were Building

Stations and other infrastructure Metrolinx is building for the Yonge North Subway Extension.

www.metrolinxengage.com

Secondly, there's lots of infrastructure under Steeles and it could be that crossing the municipal boundary also causes certain issues more easily avoided by keeping the whole box in Toronto. We'll see how it all plays out...

Most importantly, there's the very steep grade to get under the CN line south of Clark.