TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Cool. Put it on the surface. Through their back yards.
Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx
- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Rainforest
Senior Member
We might end up with a fully underground option, but with no stations between Steeles and Hwy 7.
TheKingEast
Senior Member
These bloody idiots.
Undead
Senior Member
I thought Thornhill was a safe conservative riding?
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
Thornhill was split into two ridings a few years ago.
The Vaughan side is a pretty safe PC riding and the Markham side is a pretty safe Liberal riding. I'd like to think they were both battlegrounds but, alas, no. Not for a while.
And ain't gonna be no elevated line. The only question is what alignment they go with and where the choo-choos pop out of the tunnels.
And that logo isn't so bad; if only 1/3 houses is being cracked in two, you're still doing pretty good. Plus, you could take those 2 half-houses and get some nice missing middle stuff in there
p.s. I don't think anyone posted more than the logo but the residents' website is here:
www.subwayatro.com
The Vaughan side is a pretty safe PC riding and the Markham side is a pretty safe Liberal riding. I'd like to think they were both battlegrounds but, alas, no. Not for a while.
And ain't gonna be no elevated line. The only question is what alignment they go with and where the choo-choos pop out of the tunnels.
And that logo isn't so bad; if only 1/3 houses is being cracked in two, you're still doing pretty good. Plus, you could take those 2 half-houses and get some nice missing middle stuff in there
p.s. I don't think anyone posted more than the logo but the residents' website is here:
Home | Subway at Royal Orchard | Metrolinx Updates
Metrolinx announced that it planned to pursue an option (3) that would see it extending the Yonge North Subway line underneath the Royal Orchard community. Have your voice heard.
www.subwayatro.com
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Affirmative. Stop at Steeles. Do not pass the Steeles. Do not enter the Region of York.
syn
Senior Member
Not really surprised.
A lot of people didn't move into these areas for subways.
If this forces the government to explore above ground options (which I seriously doubt) then that could be a good thing.
Allandale25
Senior Member
There's another virtual consultation meeting tonight.
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
There's another virtual consultation meeting tonight.
And there's another one on May 19. I guess we'll see if things get any less contentious with Royal Orchard (and also if anyone will have any concerns, except for the people in that pocket).
I don't think the subway should go past Eglinton! Do not enter North York!
Now we've both declared opinions that won't have any effect whatsoever on the reality of where Line 1 goes.
ShonTron
Moderator
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DirectionNorth
Active Member
What was this one rallying against?
TJ O'Pootertoot
Senior Member
That hand creeps me out. Is the Character of Long Branch people with mushy, knobby (but powerful) hands
I prefer the powerful TTC train doing the house-bashing.
ARG1
Senior Member
Project Update for the Yonge North Extension has been released today, and there is a lot to unpack.
First I want to address this slide solely because it reaffirms that a Steeles RT is happening and is still being worked on apparently. Nothing more to say about that.
Next we have these 3 slides outlining improved travel times which frankly I find a bit fascinating, but we'll go through them one by one.
So first we have the claim that travel time on the extension will be ~12 mins end to end. Now looking at GMaps, the current travel time on Viva Blue along the same corridor is ~19 mins off peak, however this image is claiming travel time to be 26 mins? Now we can give the benefit of the doubt and say that this is for rush hour journeys where the busses are likely to get stuck in traffic, but tbh that raises even more questions. For example why didn't they include RH Line travel times? However I decided to look up travel times for the RH Line, and according to GMaps the expected travel time from Langstaff to Queen is 48 mins, add a 4 minute walk at the start and its only slower than the Yonge Line by 4 minutes, however for now let's move on.
These last 2 images bring up something puzzling as well. While it does seem Line 1 will offer vasts amount of improvement, its important to consider where improvements could be made in the former, namely moving Oriole station north to Leslie which could cut down that 8 minute walking time to 1-2 minutes, which cuts the comparison down from 73 mins to 66 mins for North York Centre, and 80 mins to 73/74 mins for Eglinton. This means that while Line 1 will be quite a bit faster, it won't be impressively faster than the Richmond Hill line with much cheaper upgrades. Personally I believe the value of Line 1 will come from more dispersed trips that aren't highlighted here, especially off peak trips, the specific examples they highlight here are puzzling.
From here on out though things are looking a lot better.
This slide isn't all too interesting with the exception of the first paragraph which suggests that a major benefit to the above ground alignment is protecting the corridor for future northern extensions, which sort of validates my personal theory that Metrolinx does plan on doing even more northern extension to the line so that it becomes a quasi "Richmond Hill RER" which imo makes a bit of sense. For reasons I have mentioned several times in this forum, the Richmond Hill Line is extremely difficult to justify the conversion to full RER service, so turning a subway line that runs pretty close to the corridor to an alternate RER line actually does make quite a bit of financial and logistical sense - to the dismay of people on this forum xd.
Next we have these 2 images which is ultimately the main sales pitch to this entire project - Regional connectivity.
The YNSE will connect Line 1, the most important rapid transit line in the city of Toronto to a GO train line, 3 BRT routes, a major GO bus corridor, and the future 407 transitway, fulfilling a major link to a major transit intersection as shown in the first of these 2 slides. The entire purpose of this extension is to create a major regional hub at a valuable rapid transit intersection where lines can easily be built from, development can be spurred, and transit connections are easy to make. This is further compounded by the design of Bridge Station which is a massive Bus Terminal overlaid on top of the GO train and Line 1 platforms, meaning that getting from the subway to the regional, which tbh I wish this is what Metrolinx highlighted earlier with the travel time comparisons. Right now a lot of GO bus routes terminate at Finch Station, which being nice, sucks as a regional transit hub. The closest highway is 3km away, GO busses have to travel through the crowded North York Centre to reach there, and running busses through the station are basically impossible. What this extension allows for is trips like going from North York Centre to Waterloo. You take the subway north from NYC to RHC, then take a GO bus - transitway or non transitway to Kitchener, and if the 407 transitway gets built the bus will have direct rapid transit like service to Waterloo (well until around Lisgar) where frequent stops can be made that allows folks to transfer to services like the Hurontario LRT to get to Brampton or Mississauga, and in a way that is direct and fast. I really wish that Metrolinx highlighted that fact more.
A few more slides:
For the people on here like Syn who are complaining that the Richmond Hill line is underground for too long, well here's a brand new alignment just for you that runs away from Yonge Street - serving absolutely nobody at all and heads straight for the rail line, while also only spending only an extra 200m aboveground. What an amazing investment and alignment, wow. (/s)
On a more serious note, this map suggests the creation of a Gateway Station south of Bridge which... please no. Its kind of difficult to justify having both Bridge and High Tech so close together, having a gateway station even closer to bridge south of that seems even more extraneous, although again would probably be cheap since its already above ground.
Next we have this slide here that talks about parking without actually talking about parking. While its nice to hear what these new connections to Line 1 will be, on a slide labelled parking it would be nice to at least have some taste about what's being worked on rather than just saying we have a process. However given how much they're talking about connections to other lines and services, it seems like they're saying that they don't want to have parking on this terminus, which fair enough I guess.
Final Slide. This one talks about all of the changes they're making to the project in order to save money, and while most of this is stuff we already knew about, something interesting to note is that they are claiming that tunneling under the Don Valley is actually cheaper than rebuilding the bridge. While I sort of understand why that would be, I wonder if this factors in addition station costs this might incur since the tunnel has to be deeper at stations like Clark and Royal Orchard.
The rest of the presentation covers timelines for stuff like early works which feel pretty standard so I didn't feel like it was worth covering, however it is possible I missed something important so go and check through the slides yourselves.
https://www.metrolinxengage.com/sites/default/files/ynse_may_5_northern_municipalities_voh_final.pdf
First I want to address this slide solely because it reaffirms that a Steeles RT is happening and is still being worked on apparently. Nothing more to say about that.
Next we have these 3 slides outlining improved travel times which frankly I find a bit fascinating, but we'll go through them one by one.
So first we have the claim that travel time on the extension will be ~12 mins end to end. Now looking at GMaps, the current travel time on Viva Blue along the same corridor is ~19 mins off peak, however this image is claiming travel time to be 26 mins? Now we can give the benefit of the doubt and say that this is for rush hour journeys where the busses are likely to get stuck in traffic, but tbh that raises even more questions. For example why didn't they include RH Line travel times? However I decided to look up travel times for the RH Line, and according to GMaps the expected travel time from Langstaff to Queen is 48 mins, add a 4 minute walk at the start and its only slower than the Yonge Line by 4 minutes, however for now let's move on.
These last 2 images bring up something puzzling as well. While it does seem Line 1 will offer vasts amount of improvement, its important to consider where improvements could be made in the former, namely moving Oriole station north to Leslie which could cut down that 8 minute walking time to 1-2 minutes, which cuts the comparison down from 73 mins to 66 mins for North York Centre, and 80 mins to 73/74 mins for Eglinton. This means that while Line 1 will be quite a bit faster, it won't be impressively faster than the Richmond Hill line with much cheaper upgrades. Personally I believe the value of Line 1 will come from more dispersed trips that aren't highlighted here, especially off peak trips, the specific examples they highlight here are puzzling.
From here on out though things are looking a lot better.
This slide isn't all too interesting with the exception of the first paragraph which suggests that a major benefit to the above ground alignment is protecting the corridor for future northern extensions, which sort of validates my personal theory that Metrolinx does plan on doing even more northern extension to the line so that it becomes a quasi "Richmond Hill RER" which imo makes a bit of sense. For reasons I have mentioned several times in this forum, the Richmond Hill Line is extremely difficult to justify the conversion to full RER service, so turning a subway line that runs pretty close to the corridor to an alternate RER line actually does make quite a bit of financial and logistical sense - to the dismay of people on this forum xd.
Next we have these 2 images which is ultimately the main sales pitch to this entire project - Regional connectivity.
The YNSE will connect Line 1, the most important rapid transit line in the city of Toronto to a GO train line, 3 BRT routes, a major GO bus corridor, and the future 407 transitway, fulfilling a major link to a major transit intersection as shown in the first of these 2 slides. The entire purpose of this extension is to create a major regional hub at a valuable rapid transit intersection where lines can easily be built from, development can be spurred, and transit connections are easy to make. This is further compounded by the design of Bridge Station which is a massive Bus Terminal overlaid on top of the GO train and Line 1 platforms, meaning that getting from the subway to the regional, which tbh I wish this is what Metrolinx highlighted earlier with the travel time comparisons. Right now a lot of GO bus routes terminate at Finch Station, which being nice, sucks as a regional transit hub. The closest highway is 3km away, GO busses have to travel through the crowded North York Centre to reach there, and running busses through the station are basically impossible. What this extension allows for is trips like going from North York Centre to Waterloo. You take the subway north from NYC to RHC, then take a GO bus - transitway or non transitway to Kitchener, and if the 407 transitway gets built the bus will have direct rapid transit like service to Waterloo (well until around Lisgar) where frequent stops can be made that allows folks to transfer to services like the Hurontario LRT to get to Brampton or Mississauga, and in a way that is direct and fast. I really wish that Metrolinx highlighted that fact more.
A few more slides:
For the people on here like Syn who are complaining that the Richmond Hill line is underground for too long, well here's a brand new alignment just for you that runs away from Yonge Street - serving absolutely nobody at all and heads straight for the rail line, while also only spending only an extra 200m aboveground. What an amazing investment and alignment, wow. (/s)
On a more serious note, this map suggests the creation of a Gateway Station south of Bridge which... please no. Its kind of difficult to justify having both Bridge and High Tech so close together, having a gateway station even closer to bridge south of that seems even more extraneous, although again would probably be cheap since its already above ground.
Next we have this slide here that talks about parking without actually talking about parking. While its nice to hear what these new connections to Line 1 will be, on a slide labelled parking it would be nice to at least have some taste about what's being worked on rather than just saying we have a process. However given how much they're talking about connections to other lines and services, it seems like they're saying that they don't want to have parking on this terminus, which fair enough I guess.
Final Slide. This one talks about all of the changes they're making to the project in order to save money, and while most of this is stuff we already knew about, something interesting to note is that they are claiming that tunneling under the Don Valley is actually cheaper than rebuilding the bridge. While I sort of understand why that would be, I wonder if this factors in addition station costs this might incur since the tunnel has to be deeper at stations like Clark and Royal Orchard.
The rest of the presentation covers timelines for stuff like early works which feel pretty standard so I didn't feel like it was worth covering, however it is possible I missed something important so go and check through the slides yourselves.
44 North
Senior Member
Trouble wrapping my head around why their rejected bridge option was double decker. Not exactly Bloor Viaduct level clearance, and it'd be hugely over-engineered when there's space beside. I think they wanted to omit it for...reasons, so they stacked the deck.
ARG1
Senior Member
They probably had their reasons, and its entirely possible that doing it that way wouldn't have been any cheaper. Portals are extremely expensive, especially when you're dealing with TBMs which prefer to dig in deeper environment due to the presence of harder rock, so its entirely possible that portals for a bridge running next to Yonge street would've been even more expensive.
Most importantly I fail to see what the motivations for lying are. What exactly is Metrolinx or Doug Ford going after that would have them lie about it being cheaper to dig under the river? I can understand the potential motivations for burying Eglinton West since that's Doug Ford's backyard. The same doesn't apply to Yonge North, not to mention that the old plan involved the viaduct so this is a case where Metrolinx is actively choosing to change the plans to do what, spend extra money on the extension for no reason? At least with Eglinton West, an argument could be made that the TTC already studied the underground allignment, meaning that an underground version would result in shovels hitting the dirt faster than an elevated alignment, (which is wierd considering what's being done with Ontario Line but that's a completely different story), but with Yonge North there's absolutely none of that. To believe that Metrolinx is obfuscating information to make a fully tunneled alignment seem cheaper implies that there's a hidden motive for those in power to spend more money on a tunnel which really doesn't make any sense especially considering how many corners they're cutting with the rest of this extension, which leaves us with the final conclusion of they did the math and it really is the cheapest solution to cross the valley.