Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Streety McCarface]

This is the same kind of logic that says LRT = Streetcar. Spock would be ashamed

A subway involves a particular classification of vehicle - it doesn't just mean something's underground.

Actually...

Light rail is just a way of describing the technology used -- light capacity vehicles. You can run light capacity vehicles anywhere, on the street as a streetcar, grade separated as rapid transit, or underground as a subway. The difference between what we perceive to be "Light Rail" and "subway" is the disambiguation between LRT (low capacity) vs HRT (high capacity). Calling an LRT running underground a "subway" is not inaccurate, because a subway is just an underground railway. Just because we attach the name of "subway" to heavy rail doesn't mean a subway only has to be heavy rail, it just has to be underground.

The conflict is also seen on routes like St. Clair and Spadina -- Some people call it LRT because flexity outlooks are used and because they have their own lanes. However, the vast majority of us consider it to be a "streetcar" line because of stop spacing and other factors. It's why I hate using the term LRT to describe any form of rail transit, because it can describe every type of rail transit with one particular type of vehicle. The essence is that Light Rail == LRVs, and it doesn't matter where it's used, and therefore, one could call our streetcar lines Light Rail lines because of this.

That's why the Eglinton LRT isn't being called a subway. It's also the reason the Harbourfront Streetcar, which runs underground south of Union, isn't called a subway either.

Besides, there are only three stops on the entire Confederation Line that are underground.

As for bus connections, if the subway extended past Scarborough, the STC would no longer be the hub it is now.

I guarantee that people will call the underground section of the Crosstown a subway or at least associate it with a subway line. If we want to get into classifications, I'd call Spadina Station, Union Station, Ferry Docks, all subway sections of the streetcar network. Similar types of Light Rail/streetcar that run into a subway are seen all over the US. Some examples include:
Boston Green Line:

Pittsburg:

LA (Blue line I believe)

San Francisco (MUNI)

San Diego

Dallas

Seattle, but this one's debatable

And my personal favourite: SEPTA subway surface lines in Philadelphia:

These are all light rail systems, but the sections that run underground in these cities are called subways by the locals. Hell, even SEPTA calls their trolly lines running underground a subway line, and these are basically streetcar lines running underground.

 

[Leo_Chan]

So surface, at-grade LRTs can be called express streetcars, and underground, grade-separated LRTs can be called low capacity subways?

 

[Streety McCarface]

So surface, at-grade LRTs can be called express streetcars, and underground, grade-separated LRTs can be called low capacity subways?

Naming conventions are complicated, but I'd consider everything running on the street as a tram or streetcar; a streetcar if it's mixed with traffic. Finch west could be considered an express streetcar and I wouldn't mind that naming or the technology. In Prague, trams that do not run in mixed traffic are known as "Fast Trams", and a similar type of nomenclature can be used here. I wouldn't call it a low capacity subway, but just a light rail subway, or light rail elevated, or light rapid transit for grade-separated lines. Then again, nomenclature is complicated.

 

[syn]

So surface, at-grade LRTs can be called express streetcars, and underground, grade-separated LRTs can be called low capacity subways?

It would appear Doug Ford's logic and that of the Scarborough Subway lobby has been completely undone.

 

[Rainforest]

So surface, at-grade LRTs can be called express streetcars, and underground, grade-separated LRTs can be called low capacity subways?

That's one of the possibilities. Choosing a name for a transit line isn't very important IMO. How it actually works is an important matter.

 

[SaugeenJunction]

This RFP comes a few weeks after a similar contract for the Relief Line:

PROJECT MANAGEMENT SERVICES - YONGE SUBWAY EXTENSION

 

[Tuck]

What an odd debate (that I'm clearly late to).

A subway is a train that runs underground. That is the definition of the word. Line 5 is a subway for 10 km of its route. It will be underground, it will have full underground stations, it will have a typical train signalling system; literally the only difference between a Crosstown station and a Line 1 or 2 station is the type of vehicle.

Colloquially, we do use subway to mean grade separated "metro" (which again, the Crosstown is for 10 km), even though half the system is clearly not underground, but that doesn't change the fact that a subway is a subway when its a subway. Its just a Toronto oddity. Thats why much of the world uses "metro."

 

[BurlOak]

What an odd debate (that I'm clearly late to).

A subway is a train that runs underground. That is the definition of the word. Line 5 is a subway for 10 km of its route. It will be underground, it will have full underground stations, it will have a typical train signalling system; literally the only difference between a Crosstown station and a Line 1 or 2 station is the type of vehicle.

If this is true, then St. Clair, Spadina, and Harbourfront are also partial subways.

Colloquially, we do use subway to mean grade separated "metro" (which again, the Crosstown is for 10 km),"

Again, if we measure just after a surface stop to just before the next stop, St. Clair, Spadina, and Harbourfront are also partly metro's.

 

[Tuck]

If this is true, then St. Clair, Spadina, and Harbourfront are also partial subways.

Again, if we measure just after a surface stop to just before the next stop, St. Clair, Spadina, and Harbourfront are also partly metro's.

I guess if you want to get me on the details, sure, I guess. But we're really talking about subway lines here. In other words, stretches of multiple stations. Again, the Crosstown behaves exactly like a subway for ten km. Underground stations, underground trains, typical subway signalling system, bus connections, etc. If it looks like a duck, and quack likes a duck, its probably a duck.

I guess those lines you mention act like a subway briefly but I would hardly consider an fly-under or briefly going below grade to connect with a subway station the same as a full subway line. In that case, the only one of your examples that comes close would be Harbour since Union>Queens Quay is technically a subway line, yes, though it certainly seems silly to consider it such since its only two stations.

The whole point of Light Rail is that it exists on a spectrum. It can be a streetcar if we want it to be. It can be an express/high order streetcar. It can be an at-grade metro (similar to Seattle/Calgary) with protected crossings, or it can be an elevated/below grade metro. Thats a big reason why it was chosen on Eglinton; the fact that it can be both.

 

[44 North]

If this is true, then St. Clair, Spadina, and Harbourfront are also partial subways.

Again, if we measure just after a surface stop to just before the next stop, St. Clair, Spadina, and Harbourfront are also partly metro's.

Yeah exactly. 'If it's underground and electric it's a subway...', not so much, as evident by the examples you gave. Crosstown I wouldn't consider a subway. However there's something that might make me question that, and I might be wrong, but I believe there will be a service if you will that will operate only between Mt Dennis and Laird. In other words a 'line', end-to-end grade-separated, and automated to boot...albeit within another line/service that will operate farther and on the surface. If that is correct, then maybe said service could in fact be considered a subway/metro.

I guess if you want to get me on the details, sure, I guess. But we're really talking about subway lines here. In other words, stretches of multiple stations. Again, the Crosstown behaves exactly like a subway for ten km. Underground stations, underground trains, typical subway signalling system, bus connections, etc. If it looks like a duck, and quack likes a duck, its probably a duck.

I guess those lines you mention act like a subway briefly but I would hardly consider an fly-under or briefly going below grade to connect with a subway station the same as a full subway line. In that case, the only one of your examples that comes close would be Harbour since Union>Queens Quay is technically a subway line, yes, though it certainly seems silly to consider it such since its only two stations.

The whole point of Light Rail is that it exists on a spectrum. It can be a streetcar if we want it to be. It can be an express/high order streetcar. It can be an at-grade metro (similar to Seattle/Calgary) with protected crossings, or it can be an elevated/below grade metro. Thats a big reason why it was chosen on Eglinton; the fact that it can be both.

Then the SLRT is a confusing one. Unlike Crosstown it would've been *100%* grade-separated. Yet no official agency, and I don't think anyone other than a handful of posters on these threads, called it a subway. Still don't understand why. Should never have been associated with "LRT", even if using light rail vehicles.

 

[Tuck]

Then the SLRT is a confusing one. Unlike Crosstown it would've been *100%* grade-separated. Yet no official agency, and I don't think anyone other than a handful of posters on these threads, called it a subway. Still don't understand why. Should never have been associated with "LRT", even if using light rail vehicles.

Its certainly a metro. Or skytrain. I guess we don't call it that because its 100% above ground and uses LRT vehicles even though it behaves the same as the main subway. I'm not sure. Thats a good example.

With that in mind, maybe people will refer to the Crosstown differently - they'll just follow the marketing.

This is why metro is a far better word; its far more clear: grade separated rapid transit.

Ok its decided, when I become supreme god-king of the universe I will make changing our transit terminology my first priority.

 

[steveintoronto]

"Subway and Metro" mean very different things in different places. There is no absolute definition.

Does Edmonton call their 'LRT in tunnel' a "subway"?

Is the Montreal Metro a subway or a metro? "Subway" to most of the world is a pedestrian path underneath infrastructure.

 

[smallspy]

If this is true, then St. Clair, Spadina, and Harbourfront are also partial subways.

With what signalling?

For the record, in the Toronto context, traditionally a subway is a roadway underpass underneath a railway.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[micheal_can]

Is a streetcar an LRT, or is an LRT a streetcar?

The reality is, we have many different nomenclature for the same things.

 

[robmausser]

Is a streetcar an LRT, or is an LRT a streetcar?

The reality is, we have many different nomenclature for the same things.

There is definite crossover.

The LRT in Baltimore has stop spacing, right of ways, dedicated tracks and crossing arms like most LRTs, but you have to press a button to request it to stop at a station like a bus/streetcar.

The Norristown High Speed Line in Philli has what looks like streetcars but they operate on 3rd rail and with mandatory stops.

The Muni Metro in San Fran has what are typically LRT trains but operates mostly in mixed traffic, with a tunnel in other areas.