Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Let's just say everybody here (except Cobra!) is partly right. Ford didn't delay Eglinton by YEARS and TECHNICALLY you can blame the province for going along with all his craziness. But at the end of the day:
1) Ford obviously, politically if not legally, slowed down every part of Transit City. Some by years, some by months. IIRC, Eglinton had started tunneling but there were still other delays due to the uncertainty and negotiations with the province.
2) None of this really matters because Cobra's argument - that Eglinton is opening after TYSSE, and therefore Toronto is playing a weak political hand or something - makes no sense whatsoever.
In addition to making no sense, I just thought it was funny to excuse Toronto's own role (whether it's council or the exec committee or its extra-procedural Crack Mayor) in messing up when its own projects actually get built, open etc.

 

[Palma]

you should stop this. you can say ridership does not justify a subway, you can say the political climate does not favour a subway, you can say Canada/Ontario/Toronto/York does not have money to build a subway, but this 416 vs 905 should stop.

you still have not answered the question - why do they not demand more GO or have not? That's the question

 

[Palma]

This really nails it, Cobra.
I don't know what timing has to do with it but Eglinton would have been open first if TORONTO CITY COUNCIL hadn't cancelled it. Remember this?
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/rob-ford-transit-city-is-over-1.926388

Without that vote, BY CITY COUNCIL, the Crosstown would be open now.

But, by all means, let's talk about how the project CITY COUNCIL delayed is opening later than a project that is, as BMO notes, mostly in Toronto. Oh, and that one's delayed 2 years because of TTC's world-class project management.

Unlike Toronto, York Region came up with a single plan and have consistently planned for it and consistently moved forward trying to fund it. When they got money for Viva, they built it. It's open, on-time and on budget.

So, that's some strange ammo to bring to a fight trying to prove York Region could learn some things from Toronto about transit planning, but you run with it, dawg.

Toronto has many different layers to it and Vaughan has none so its easier to focus on only one area compared to all the transit needs of Toronto and transit areas

 

[Cobra]

Let's just say everybody here (except Cobra!) is partly right. Ford didn't delay Eglinton by YEARS and TECHNICALLY you can blame the province for going along with all his craziness. But at the end of the day:
1) Ford obviously, politically if not legally, slowed down every part of Transit City. Some by years, some by months. IIRC, Eglinton had started tunneling but there were still other delays due to the uncertainty and negotiations with the province.

The tunnel part of Eglinton was to proceed as planned. The negotiation was about Eglinton east being at grade or underground and also if it was to be merged with Scarborough LRT. Despite what was going politically on the eastern part of the line, it started on time.

2) None of this really matters because Cobra's argument - that Eglinton is opening after TYSSE, and therefore Toronto is playing a weak political hand or something - makes no sense whatsoever.
In addition to making no sense, I just thought it was funny to excuse Toronto's own role (whether it's council or the exec committee or its extra-procedural Crack Mayor) in messing up when its own projects actually get built, open etc.

1st-You're totally missing my point. I was pointing out the fact that you keep acting like it's the greatest injustice on this planet that YSNE is getting pushed back...funny that people (mainly you) keep forgetting that York IS getting a subway to Vaughan (metropolitan?) as of next year. It's a fact that it's opening before Eglinton.

2nd-What weak political hand (or something)? We're addressing the capacity issues on the subway network. The political weak hand is being played by York councillors whining (and lying) to the media and to Ottawa on not getting ANOTHER subway.

 

[darth_freeman]

One thing that people seem to conveniently ignore in the whole subway extension debate is that yes the Yonge line is congested and people have to wait for subway cars...for 2 hours a day.

Drivers have learned to leave a little early as traffic will be expected. Each morning, every highway into the city is heavily congested:

Congestion is good, that means the roads are being used fully. If all routes were green all the time it means we have massively overbuilt our infrastructure.

Our transit should be busy - it's actually a good thing. York should be able to have some sway in extending the subway...as long as their pay for it (and some for the DRL as well!).

I mean, most early morning commuters are already busing to Finch station, so extending the subway north may not net many new early riders anyways.

Does Toronto not want residents of Vaughan/Richmond hill coming down mid-day, evenings, and weekends when the subway is less busy to spend spend spend in the city? Of course they should!

I think another good idea could be to charge people boarding at the Richmond Hill stations a higher fare in the morning rush to convince more people to consider GO. Outside of the AM peak it's still normal fare though. However, this could be tricky to implement (Presto?).

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

you still have not answered the question - why do they not demand more GO or have not? That's the question

The answer is yes.
(as has been stated here an infinite number of times, they do want RER and the UGC projections are built around it. GO nonetheless provides a different service)

Toronto has many different layers to it and Vaughan has none so its easier to focus on only one area compared to all the transit needs of Toronto and transit areas

Vaughan has only one layer? Or none? I'm not sure what that means but in pretty sure it's wrong.

1st-You're totally missing my point. I was pointing out the fact that you keep acting like it's the greatest injustice on this planet that YSNE is getting pushed back...funny that people (mainly you) keep forgetting that York IS getting a subway to Vaughan (metropolitan?) as of next year. It's a fact that it's opening before Eglinton.

Still entirely immaterial.
Didn't make sense when Rob Ford said downtown doesn't need more subways because they already have them and it doesn't make sense now either.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Vaughan has only one layer? Or none? I'm not sure what that means but in pretty sure it's wrong.

Vaughan (or more specifically York Region) does not have the same complexities that the former Metro Toronto (now Toronto) does. What with 5 former cities/districts all still playing the fiefdom game, me me me, what's in it for my ward.

Vaughan's success in getting the subway to hwy 7 and Jane in part has been due to it's ability to come up with that plan, present that plan as a unified "York Region", and stick to the plan/message with little to no infighting. You don't see Maple, for example, fighting for transit along Major Mackenzie, at the expense of transit improvements along Hwy 7, or in Richmond hill. All plans within each municipality have been part of a unified plan, meanwhile in Toronto infighting continues to handicap any transit plan.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Vaughan (or more specifically York Region) does not have the same complexities that the former Metro Toronto (now Toronto) does. What with 5 former cities/districts all still playing the fiefdom game, me me me, what's in it for my ward.

I think that's awfully naive. I presume you live in Woodbridge? I live in Thornhill. I assure you, the politics are quite different and there are cabals and fiefdoms and backroom goings-on in Vaughan just as divisive and interesting and wrong as anything in Toronto. We've got all those ward issues AND regional politicians doing who knows what.

And that's without getting into York Region and the undeniable north/south split that exists, and all those problems on a double scale.

Yes, Toronto is the biggest city in the country but on a per capita basis we've got as much trouble as they do. Yeah, they have more of it - they have more wards and thus more dummies on council and they have more "priority neighbourhoods" and, hey, more of everything. But Vaughan's not a small town and York Region less so. I don't doubt that politics are easier to "manage" up here (throw less media scrutiny into the mix, and an unelected regional chairman too!).

So, I understand why YR has been able to stick by a single transit plan and TO has changed its mind 50 times. I just don't think it's an excuse. Torontonians elected Rob Ford in a free election (and Vaughan elected Linda Jackson and Michael DiBiase!) and they have only themselves to blame for the mess they're in.

Now, with this extension and RER and all the other Metrolinx moving forward the spotlight is shining on the weak links in the regional network. If they were even halfway on top of the transit file, David Miller - who many revere for his transit work - would have been aware of the importance of the DRL to the larger network. But they didn't. Like the guy in Jurassic Park said, "I don't blame people for their mistakes but I do ask that they pay for them." More or less.

 

[BMO]

York planning intensification has nothing to do whether they get a subway. They should have or be championing for more GO stations

You do realize that Transportation and Land Use go hand-in-hand right? Even if you forget about that, these municipalities have been forced to achieve a certain density level based on what's outlined the Regional Growth Plan. And unfortunately for your argument it's impossible to achieve those targets unless you have public transit investment in these mobility hubs because I can guarantee if Vaughan proposed mid-rise towers on every avenue it would likely never happen because private developers aren't going to want to build mid-rise developments that are served by a bus every 40 minutes and aren't close to a highway, or jobs, or services.

You're blaming York Region for a market force they can't change on account of they HAVE to do intensification in these areas to achieve their targets.

 

[Palma]

Vaughan (or more specifically York Region) does not have the same complexities that the former Metro Toronto (now Toronto) does. What with 5 former cities/districts all still playing the fiefdom game, me me me, what's in it for my ward.

Vaughan's success in getting the subway to hwy 7 and Jane in part has been due to it's ability to come up with that plan, present that plan as a unified "York Region", and stick to the plan/message with little to no infighting. You don't see Maple, for example, fighting for transit along Major Mackenzie, at the expense of transit improvements along Hwy 7, or in Richmond hill. All plans within each municipality have been part of a unified plan, meanwhile in Toronto infighting continues to handicap any transit plan.

it has to do with Sobara who lives in Vaughan and was Ministry of Finance doling out money

 

[Cobra]

One thing that people seem to conveniently ignore in the whole subway extension debate is that yes the Yonge line is congested and people have to wait for subway cars...for 2 hours a day.

Drivers have learned to leave a little early as traffic will be expected. Each morning, every highway into the city is heavily congested:
View attachment 69552
Congestion is good, that means the roads are being used fully. If all routes were green all the time it means we have massively overbuilt our infrastructure.

Our transit should be busy - it's actually a good thing. York should be able to have some sway in extending the subway...as long as their pay for it (and some for the DRL as well!).

I mean, most early morning commuters are already busing to Finch station, so extending the subway north may not net many new early riders anyways.

Does Toronto not want residents of Vaughan/Richmond hill coming down mid-day, evenings, and weekends when the subway is less busy to spend spend spend in the city? Of course they should!

I think another good idea could be to charge people boarding at the Richmond Hill stations a higher fare in the morning rush to convince more people to consider GO. Outside of the AM peak it's still normal fare though. However, this could be tricky to implement (Presto?).

What's wrong with GO RER? Why not advocate for that instead? Additional stops can be added on major Toronto arteries including Sheppard Subway, Eglinton Crosstown and Bloor-Danforth line all the way to Union...just like the Paris RER is doing quite well. RER is a proven system which the province is replicating, to my surprise, the right way.

That's just me...but wouldn't it make more sense to have the province (by pressuring them...rightfully so) to include Richmond Hill and accelerate it to RER (paid by them)and use the $4B (combo of province and York) that was planned for the subways, to drastically improve transit in York by BRT or LRT (which is also rapid transit) by linking the major hubs together?

I'd like to think that a $4B LRT lines + GO RER Stations brings WAY MORE value to York than a few subway stops.
Why isn't York region remotely interested at exploring this possibility? Wouldn't that option stimulate even more growth if there was more rapid transit covering more territory and reaching more riders? The subway to Richmond Hill is decades away from happening if it does happen, so why not having this discussion which could get more rapid transit faster, to more people at a reasonable price per km?

This is not a turf war. Toronto had the same thought process which will get us the Transit City model who brings more rapid transit to more people instead of a few Km of subways. Hell, even NYC is doing it to link Brooklyn to Queens, yet people are adamant that this much money should be used on a subway for such a short stretch.

@TJ O'Pootertoot
Laugh at Rob Ford all you want but York Region councillors are replicating exactly what he was doing

-Subways, subways, subways
-Build it and they'll come
-LRT are a nightmare and beneath us

RER and Subway stations together

RER Underground Stations within Paris

RER Entering the city

Suburban RER Stations

Over 4$B could get York a comprehensive network that could look like that

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

What's wrong with GO RER? Why not advocate for that instead? Additional stops can be added on major Toronto arteries including Sheppard Subway, Eglinton Crosstown and Bloor-Danforth line all the way to Union...just like the Paris RER is doing quite well. RER is a proven system which the province is replicating, to my surprise, the right way.

you're just missing cause and effect here.
First, the province TOLD them they were getting the subway. I don't even think they expected it. It was only right for them to plan for their centres and corridors based on those assumptions. People keep criticizing York for that but, when it comes to intensification and transit planning, they are doing what the upper level of government told them to do.
Second, they DO want RER. It's crucial for Markham Centre and for RHC/Langstaff. But so is the subway, because it allows intensification along the Yonge corridor. RER, in Richmond Hill, offers almost no intensification potential, except to a limited degree, possibly, around John Street. RER is awesome, but it's not mutually exclusive.

I haven't seen anyone here poopoo RER as a service. It's just not sufficient to achieve the regional goals on its own.

I'd like to think that a $4B LRT lines + GO RER Stations brings WAY MORE value to York than a few subway stops.

And I'd like to think the Maple Leafs will totally win the Cup this year. It's not true.
As BMO point out, land use and transportation go hand in hand. RER helps with one element of transit (ie getting to/from Union) but has very little development impact. The subway would provide a greater degree of intensification in the mobility hub (particularly in concert with RER) and millions - maybe billions - more in development along the length of Yonge. So, it does not at all provide WAY MORE value unless you're operating under the premise York Region's major planning challenge is how to get more residents down to Union Station quickly.

Why isn't York region remotely interested at exploring this possibility?

Again, they are. They want RER on RH and the Stouffville line.

Wouldn't that option stimulate even more growth if there was more rapid transit covering more territory and reaching more riders?

No, because of WHERE it runs.

The subway to Richmond Hill is decades away from happening if it does happen

Tell that to John Tory and Jennifer Keesmaat. They said yesterday it's happening within 15 years. you know different?

so why not having this discussion which could get more rapid transit faster, to more people at a reasonable price per km?

It doesn't have to be one or the other. I'm sure YR would be perfectly happy if RER were announced tomorrow; at least as long as it wasn't, "We're giving you RER instead of a subway." Lots of people yesterday on social media were posting slides from the Toronto Exec Committee showing transit plans from over the years. They envisioned a subway loop at Steeles back in 1985. Doesn't seem very hard too grasp, 30 years later, that the ridership/development potential now stretches to the north of that.

In the meantime, maybe there's someone at Metrolinx who knows why RER on RH wasn't in the first phase.
Seems obvious to me that the Lakeshore line is a greater priority and that there are flooding and other challenges that have to be resolved on the RH line first. I know others see some sort of pro-subway conspiracy going on too. Maybe, I dunno.

This is not a turf war. Toronto had the same thought process which will get us the Transit City model who brings more rapid transit to more people instead of a few Km of subways.

It was a good plan, but also drawn on the back of a napkin.
How's it coming along, by the way?

Hell, even NYC is doing it to link Brooklyn to Queens, yet people are adamant that this much money should be used on a subway for such a short stretch.

How many years ago - how many decades, CENTURIES - was it that Manhattan was connected by subway to Brooklyn? How many subway lines go there now? And from Brooklyn to Queen's? I'm pretty sure it's more than 1. Strange comparison. Long Island is closer, and they don't have subways (not quite) but they've had "RER" for decades.

You can't compare our system to theirs for dozens of reasons. But they do employ multiple modes and have lots of subways and plenty of points where the subway and RER converge.

They also have all their transit services merged under a single, powerful authority. Let's try that on for a change and see if we can get things going in the right direction.

Laugh at Rob Ford all you want but York Region councillors are replicating exactly what he was doing

No.
Rob Ford wanted subways everywhere and had no grasp of lesser modes. He would NEVER build a BRT down the middle of the road like YR did and we both know it.
They look forward to, one day, being able to upgrade those lines to LRT and, contrary to what you say, designed the system with that in mind.
Unlike Rob Ford,they can distinguish - and have distinguished - between where they want subways and where they want other modes.
If they start asking for subways to Newmarket, I'll stand beside you. Until then, I say this is dead wrong.


Thank you - sincerely - for the pictures of RER and subway together. I've been to Paris and seen some of those.
You know where they want to build an RER and subway together? It rhymes with Smichmond Bill, is my clue.

 

[minilude]

you still have not answered the question - why do they not demand more GO or have not? That's the question

The current expansion of Richmond Hill GO includes a new station at Gormley (Stouffville Rd/404), and probably two more trains in peak hours this year (can't remember the exact arrangement, it could also be one train in peak and one train off peak). For upper Richmond Hill residents the GO is still the preferred way of commuting. For the lower part, which includes all lower Richmond Hill/Markham/Vaughan residents (so called thornhill) and upper Toronto residents, most of them won't choose Richmond Hill GO anyway as compared to parking or "kiss and ride" at Finch station given the current fare structure. The GO fare is more expensive, and it has no time-saving advantage over the other option (the GO even slightly takes longer). People pay more if it saves time. So in summary, just as what TJ says, the GO provides a different service, and towards a different customer base. I don't think even an electrified line would attract those who currently choose to ride from Finch Station. However I do think what if the fare from Finch (plus parking) is in par with the cost of commuting by GO from Langstaff? Will it divert ppl to GO? probably, so then the urgency of electrifying the Richmond Hill Go rises. I so far haven't seen any cost estimation in regards to buying off part of the rail, electrifying and re-alignment of the Richmond Hill GO (so it can solve the flooding issue and meanwhile gain time advantage over "take subway from Finch"). How is it going to compare with a Yonge North subway extension? Assuming it is 2-3 billions vs 4 billions, but as a result the intensifications occurred in southern York continue to choose Finch as a preferred way of commuting due to cost and time saving, the 2-3 billions could be essentially just catered towards the lower-growth upper York populations. In order to attract the current customers who choose to ride from Finch, these conditions need to be satisfied: The travelling time by GO is shorter, and the GO fare needs to be about the same as "subway from Finch" (or a little more expensive if the time saving is significant), and the frequency is competitive enough. I just don't think these would happen by means of "demand more GO". A 2-3 billions improvement can only provide one condition of these three - the time saving, at the best.

 

[dowlingm]

The issue with Metrolinx Richmond Hill expansion isn't just the bit near the USRC - there's the Doncaster Diamond separation needed with CN York Sub too...

 

[Cobra]

you're just missing cause and effect here.
First, the province TOLD them they were getting the subway. I don't even think they expected it. It was only right for them to plan for their centres and corridors based on those assumptions. People keep criticizing York for that but, when it comes to intensification and transit planning, they are doing what the upper level of government told them to do

The province told Toronto would get a Sheppard Line from STC to Downview based on studies that justified it at the time...didn't happen as it was cut down to 5 stations
The province told Toronto would get an Eglinton West subway based on studies that justified it at the time...didn't happen

Just room for thoughts...but it's not a guarantee that it will happen in the short or medium term.

As for your intensification and transit planning, it was said many times that LRT and GO RER wasn't taken under consideration. A report proving that subway trumps all would put this debate to rest, yet that report doesn't exist and it should get done. By the time the Relief Line will be built, Metrolinx will most likely do another one as the old report will be too old.

Second, they DO want RER. It's crucial for Markham Centre and for RHC/Langstaff. But so is the subway, because it allows intensification along the Yonge corridor. RER, in Richmond Hill, offers almost no intensification potential, except to a limited degree, possibly, around John Street. RER is awesome, but it's not mutually exclusive.

I'd like to see the report that backs your claim...Until you find it for me, you're just speculating.

I haven't seen anyone here poopoo RER as a service. It's just not sufficient to achieve the regional goals on its own.

Again, where's the report backing your claim? You're speculating again.

And I'd like to think the Maple Leafs will totally win the Cup this year. It's not true.
As BMO point out, land use and transportation go hand in hand. RER helps with one element of transit (ie getting to/from Union) but has very little development impact. The subway would provide a greater degree of intensification in the mobility hub (particularly in concert with RER) and millions - maybe billions - more in development along the length of Yonge. So, it does not at all provide WAY MORE value unless you're operating under the premise York Region's major planning challenge is how to get more residents down to Union Station quickly.

Again, where's the report backing your claim? You're speculating again. Your theory makes sense but I need facts...which you don't have. Hence a new study is needed.

Again, they are. They want RER on RH and the Stouffville line.

Good, might have been a good idea to let the Feds know that when they went visiting Ottawa...Unsurprisingly, they left that part out.

No.because of WHERE it runs.

That's why I brought up LRT to service it and compliment it.

Tell that to John Tory and Jennifer Keesmaat. They said yesterday it's happening within 15 years. you know different?

And Smarttrack was supposed to happen within 7 years as originally envisioned...Oh well...Also, they are quoting the Big Move. Things can change as the Relief Line wasn't there originally.

It doesn't have to be one or the other. I'm sure YR would be perfectly happy if RER were announced tomorrow; at least as long as it wasn't, "We're giving you RER instead of a subway." Lots of people yesterday on social media were posting slides from the Toronto Exec Committee showing transit plans from over the years. They envisioned a subway loop at Steeles back in 1985. Doesn't seem very hard too grasp, 30 years later, that the ridership/development potential now stretches to the north of that.

Ok. Doesn't have to be one or the other...Why isn't LRT remotely an option for you for them to link important parts of YR together and get them to Vaughan Subway Station and the GO RER Stations faster?

In the meantime, maybe there's someone at Metrolinx who knows why RER on RH wasn't in the first phase.
Seems obvious to me that the Lakeshore line is a greater priority and that there are flooding and other challenges that have to be resolved on the RH line first. I know others see some sort of pro-subway conspiracy going on too. Maybe, I dunno.

I don't think Metrolinx owns all the tracks on Richmond Hill line and Stouffville. They need to either own them or build new tracks I assume. This can be done faster than a subway that won't get build before the Relief line, which is at least a decade from operating.

It was a good plan, but also drawn on the back of a napkin.
How's it coming along, by the way?

Fine.
Eglinton Crosstown will get build as planned from the Airport to UTSC (Malvern LRT segment aka Crosstown East)
Scarborough LRT is replace by the subway extension
Finch will get build
Don Mills will become the relief line.

The rest is deferred because of the province.

How many years ago - how many decades, CENTURIES - was it that Manhattan was connected by subway to Brooklyn?

Around 1918-1919

How man subway lines go there now? I'm pretty sure it's more than 1. Strange comparison. Long Island is closer, and they don't have subways (not quite) but they've had "RER" for decades.

I meant they are preferring LRT over subways to link those 2 boroughs. Your point on the subway, the demand was/is there in Brooklyn to justify the subway unlike Richmond Hill.

No.
Rob Ford wanted subways everywhere and had no grasp of lesser modes. He would NEVER build a BRT down the middle of the road like YR did and we both know it.
They look forward to, one day, being able to upgrade those lines to LRT and, contrary to what you say, designed the system with that in mind.
Unlike Rob Ford,they can distinguish - and have distinguished - between where they want subways and where they want other modes.
If they start asking for subways to Newmarket, I'll stand beside you. Until then, I say this is dead wrong.

Your thoughts on Vaughan Metropolitain subway and ideas of extension to Vaughan Mills and Wonderland...Please

And I'm confused...The subway is a pressing matter since you claim the ridership and demand justifies it while LRT is far from being urgent...Weird contradiction...

Thank you - sincerely - for the pictures of RER and subway together. I've been to Paris and seen some of those.
You know where they want to build an RER and subway together? It rhymes with Smichmond Bill, is my clue.

Yet those are within Paris. Suburbs are serviced by the RER. The intermodal stations was to show you that the RER can accommodate suburban riders who doesn't necessarily need to go downtown. They can get off anywhere on the same avenues as the Yonge Line is currently doing with access to rapid transit line to get them more precisely where they need to go.