Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

[Amare]

I've also said I think everything will be fine if Yonge goes first, since it's closer to being ready, so long as DRL is right behind it. I've never said it should be built without any DRL plans.

Well obviously that's your opinion, and the Metrolinx report indirectly says otherwise. I thought you would've known that since you decided to graciously go through the report with us.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

No understanding of planning.
First, we WANT suburbs to build development that does not require cars.
Second, the PROVINCE mandated where they grow and the PROVINCE allotted population targets.
Third, the market intensifies in prime locations, especially along transportation routes.

The region isn't CHOOSING to develop that way. It's the provincial law. Jeeze.

And other municipalities are able to densify without the need of a subway, and York Region isn't that unique. So please, don't use the provincially mandated target as an excuse.

As for "sucking off York Region," I guess you took Economic Development courses where you took Planning Law? It's one region. The only difference is where your tax dollars go. If the transportation system in York Region tanks, Toronto won't be sitting pretty and vice versa. It's in everyone's mutual interest to find solutions to all this.

Actually, not really - if your transit system tanks, the overall impact to Toronto will be minimal. Not so much the other way around. It maybe in everyone's mutual interest to advance a solution, but what the region is engaging in ain't it.

Are you being ironic or do you actually not know where York Region's water supply comes from?
I sincerely cannot tell but if you don't know, google it before you get back to me.

I am touched by your sincerity but that won't be necessary - I take it you are aware that there are actual legal agreements between York Region and Toronto governing the amount of water transfer and payment for the ancillary infrastructural needs enabling such, instead of a one-sided approach along the lines that you have suggested in your extension arguments? Perhaps you should do well to study them and maybe adopt that as a means of moving forward.

AoD

 

[Translude15]

I'm 100% fine with them being built together and have said so, multiple times.
I've also said I think everything will be fine if Yonge goes first, since it's closer to being ready, so long as DRL is right behind it. I've never said it should be built without any DRL plans.

And there wasn't a harm in delaying - in 2009 when it first came up. Toronto has dithered for 7 years. Now it's causing harm.

How do you like that cup of milk on your head, ,bub?
(Seriously - a cup of milk on my head? Is that a thing? Or are you being impetulant with me?!)

http://metro.co.uk/2012/11/27/milki...ng-pouring-pints-of-milk-on-your-head-549132/

Give it a try, it might rejuvenate your senses. Not like I would know.

That said, I understand Toronto's dithering is of no fault of York region but realistically, this dithering on the transit file has been ongoing for more than the just the last 7 years, as you are probably well aware. You can't suddenly piggyback York region's Yonge subway over what will essentially be Toronto's most important infrastructure project in over half a century on the basis that Toronto dithered and we (York region) had our collective shi* together. Downtown Toronto and the burgeoning shoulder regions are far more important centres of development than RHC ever will be. That in itself is the basis of the outrage surrounding York Region's unilateral-type actions today. Essentially, someone should say, "Calm the eff down York Region! Get the hell back in line!"

 

[Hopkins123]

If York Region is so eager to have the Yonge Subway extension, why isn't Peel Region (Mississauga more so than Brampton) so eager about extending the Bloor Subway into Mississauga? Doesn't Peel Region have a larger population than York Region?

Because Mississauga lacks real leadership. A Bloor-Danforth extension has the potential of linking three regional malls (Cloverdale, Sherway Gardens and Square One), the Dundas East corridor, and the Hurontario corridor all to mass transit. Should be a no-brainer but it seems Crombie's asleep at the wheel.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Well obviously that's your opinion, and the Metrolinx report indirectly says otherwise. I thought you would've known that since you decided to graciously go through the report with us.

I guess we have different readings of their conclusion which, again, simply, is that if we build all this other stuff we're supposed to there is sufficient capacity, circa 2031, meaning the DRL is still required but not beforehand; despite all your equivocations.

Alan Shefman and I read it and read it the same way. Unless we're the same person, in which case, obviously we read it the same way.

But as I said, that's modelling anyway, not fortune telling. No one KNOWS.

And I'll keep asking until someone answers:
Where are your concerns and John Tory's and Josh Colle's about additional capacity resulting from the Crosstown and Scarborough lines?

And other municipalities are able to densify without the need of a subway. So please, don't use the provincially mandated target as an excuse.

Lordy. You know less than I though about planning.
Obviously intensification can take place without a subway. I can buy a lot, tear down one house and put up 2. no subway involved!
Equally obviously you get MORE intensification with a subway.
The entire goal of provincial planning law - which again, municipalities cannot CHOOSE to ignore - is to maximize infrastructure and that means, at least in theory, putting the right thing in the right place.
You can leave Yonge Street North as it is but you won't get as much intensification. And you'll get more cars and fewer transit riders.

I could explain further but if you can't even understand WHY they want the subway, I can't help you. The transit itself is a no-brainer. The only issue is downstream capacity.

I take it from your response you don't know that York Region doesn't have its own water supply and therefore gets it from Toronto and that it therefore runs through Toronto's pipes, all the way up to York Region and that York Region people pay for this privilege in their water bills etc. etc. Indeed, it's not hypothetical at all.

Also, can I say again, I really enjoyed when you mentioned "impetulance"?

That said, I understand Toronto's dithering is of no fault of York region but realistically, this dithering on the transit file has been ongoing for more than the just the last 7 years, as you are probably well aware.

Definitely. The DRL has been kicked around for decades.
However, in this instance, the DRL came to the fore through the EA for the Yonge extension. They did not pounce on it. Rob Ford obviously threw transit planning into turmoil but the fact remains that it's taken a long time for anyone other then Jen Keesmaat to agree it should be their top transit priority.

It's a larger problem, but this is how such problems come to a head.
I still don't understand the "outrage." All York Region did was tell the PM they want money for the subway - no different than Rob Ford calling Harper to fund his far-more-hypothetical Scarborough plan or Tory getting funding approvals - FROM ALL THREE party leaders during the election - for his back-of-a-napkin SmartTrack plan.

The subway wasn't invented by the YR politicians yesterday. It was devised by the province and it has a complete EA. They didn't do anything wrong.

And to be clear - I don't think Trudeau should fund it. The feds should give a set amount to the province every years, to be spent by Metrolinx. No more single-project funding.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Lordy. You know less than I though about planning.

Cute, but do go on.

Obviously intensification can take place without a subway. I can buy a lot, tear down one house and put up 2. no subway involved!
Equally obviously you get MORE intensification with a subway.
The entire goal of provincial planning law - which again, municipalities cannot CHOOSE to ignore - is to maximize infrastructure and that means, at least in theory, putting the right thing in the right place.
You can leave Yonge Street North as it is but you won't get as much intensification. And you'll get more cars and fewer transit riders.

That would be funny - Markham seems to be able to do it, and they certainly didn't have a subway lying around. What's so special about Richmond Hill that requires - *requires* - a subway - and nothing but a subway?

I could explain further but if you can't even understand WHY they want the subway, I can't help you. The transit itself is a no-brainer. The only issue is downstream capacity.

Your help is greatly appreciated, but unnecessary.

I take it from your response you don't know that York Region doesn't have its own water supply and therefore gets it from Toronto and that it therefore runs through Toronto's pipes, all the way up to York Region and that York Region people pay for this privilege in their water bills etc. etc. Indeed, it's not hypothetical at all.

Also, can I say again, I really enjoyed when you mentioned "impetulance"?

Actually York Region has its' own water supply (look it up, if checking the website of your region escapes you), as well as using supply provided by the Toronto and Peel - and that there are legal agreements for the payment of such AND the capital works and the cost required to enable such. The latter is what I am driving home about, i.e. the city won't supply what it couldn't provide without expansion, and how the costs for any such expansion has to be recouped, comprehend? Or do I have to spell it out in less allegory?

AoD

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

That would be funny - Markham seems to be able to do it, and they certainly didn't have a subway lying around. What's so special about Richmond Hill that requires - *requires* - a subway - and nothing but a subway?

Everytime I think you know less than I think, you go one further.
The subway goes about 50m into Richmond Hill. Markham wants it MORE than Richmond Hill!
Markham has an entire CORRIDOR along Yonge which Richmond Hill does not have. (Vaughan too)
Markham's density plans for their growth centre DWARF what Richmond Hill is planning in theirs.

So when you say "Markham can do it without a subway," you are 100% wrong.
Markham Centre has lower density, obviously, and has different transit infrastructure. It's a different neighbourhood, the same way Toronto has density both along Yonge Street but also in a billion other places where there is no subway. But there is MORE of it where the subway is and because suburbs like York Region have crappy, old sprawling development, we want MORE intensification where it makes sense to do so. You can build an LRT along Yonge instead, if you really want, but there will be LESS intensification.

Since you "asked" I'll explain this once again:
The density/population targets in the growth centre were reverse-engineered from transit capacity totally unlike most developments, which look at road capacity. Ergo, in the growth centre the density is contingent on th e subway (AND all-day GO, and the 407 Transitway).

Actually York Region has its' own water supply, as well as using supply provided by the Toronto and Peel - and that there are legal agreements for the payment of such AND the capital cost required to enable such. The latter is what I am driving home about, comprehend?

Impetulance much?

(I never advocated for any kind of one-sided agreement. Absurd straw-man. I expect York Region to pay its share of the capital costs, obviously, and hope/assume fare integration of some sort will be in place to ensure operational costs are also not a "burden" to Toronto. Nutty to suggest otherwise.)

 

[Amare]

I guess we have different readings of their conclusion which, again, simply, is that if we build all this other stuff we're supposed to there is sufficient capacity, circa 2031, meaning the DRL is still required but not beforehand; despite all your equivocations.


And I'll keep asking until someone answers:
Where are your concerns and John Tory's and Josh Colle's about additional capacity resulting from the Crosstown and Scarborough lines?

I'm not going to bother changing your interpretation of the report since it's flawed it would be like beating a dead horse at this point. You may want to read the report more carefully your 2nd time around.

As for "my concerns" with the Crosstown line here they are:

a) The Crosstown line is not funneling 100% of its riders to the Yonge line like a YNSE would
b) The Crosstown line would allow some riders who would otherwise take the Yonge line, to instead change their pattern and take the University line
c) The Crosstown line will relieve capacity issues that will arise with the Bloor-Danforth line 10-15 years in the future (saving on costs as ATC has been deferred there)

I could go on with "my concerns" but i'm not so sure you would understand them at all.

 

[LNahid2000]

Everytime I think you know less than I think, you go one further.
The subway goes about 50m into Richmond Hill. Markham wants it MORE than Richmond Hill!
Markham has an entire CORRIDOR along Yonge which Richmond Hill does not have. (Vaughan too)

lol at your argument about the small section of Markham that is west of the 404.

 

[sixrings]

Im just going to assume that if vaughan fought for an extension of the spadina line and richmond hill is fighting for an extension of the yonge line that inevitably Markham will fight for an extension of the DRL to Highway 7 as well.. Clearly the world starts and finished at Highway 7.

 

[Forgotten]

With all due respect to Alan Shefman, I'm afraid the only mythology here is the idea of York Region caring about TOD when they've gutted core bus service to one step above the stone age. York's motives are as transparent as Allan's hair.

They know the hammer is about to fall on them and they scared.

 

[drum118]

Because Mississauga lacks real leadership. A Bloor-Danforth extension has the potential of linking three regional malls (Cloverdale, Sherway Gardens and Square One), the Dundas East corridor, and the Hurontario corridor all to mass transit. Should be a no-brainer but it seems Crombie's asleep at the wheel.

Get Real!!!

Mississauga does not and will not have a need for a subway to Sq One for at least 75 years or more.

Current ridership to the subway is about 30,000 a day from "ALL" the routes, not just 3, 20, 26, 76, 109.

The first place a subway should be built is to Cloverdale. Going to Sherway is another white elephant.

"IF" Mississauga gets its act together and deal with the blight between 427 and Dixie Rd along Dundas St, you can generate density for residential, manufacturing and commercial between 200-400,000 people that would support a subway. Between Dixie and Hurontario, you can generate another 400,000 residential and commercial users. Going north to Sq One on Hurontario, you will see 100,000 users.

If you take the subway to Sq One from Dixie in a straight line, there is no need for any stations since there is no density in the first place.

You are far better off using a Tram-Train to/from Sq One than built a under use subway you want at huge cost to everyone.

As much as I support an LRT line on Dundas now, it doesn't have the ridership to support it now and there is no ridership west of Hurontario to support one until that area is totally redevelopment over the next 100 years. Metrolinx wants an BRT to connect Halton and Mississauga together considering Halton has no density or ridership to support an BRT by 2030.

You need to address the Major issue south of Bloor St for getting riders safely to/from the current over crowded platforms as well enlarging them. Bloor Station for line 2 needs to be rebuilt to support 3 platforms, not the current one and that a very difficult job to do considering what under it as well overhead.

TTC wanted to build the Queen line as late as 1969, but keep getting shot down by the suburb councilors to the point it was removed from the transportation master plan.

Unless you have some sort of Rapid Transit on Don Mills going to the City core from Steeles/hwy 7, any upgrading on the RH line is not going to do much to reduce the load off the Young Line from Finch south by 2030.

When the next set of TR show up in late 2020, they will be 7 cars that will carry more riders than today, but matching what is needed today.

 

[GenerationW]

If York Region wants this subway, they're more than welcome to pay for the Finch to Steeles section too, only once sufficient Yonge relief is in place. As a Toronto taxpayer, I'm no longer feeling particularly compelled to having TO tax dollars contribute to YNSE

What if no Toronto tax dollars are needed to fund capital costs? Though just in case, perhaps you should attend a community meeting to try and force the city to change policy.



Predictions:

1) Federal-Provincial funding announcement will occur in 2018 sometime before the next provincial election.

2) Toronto will offer a meek protest before accepting reality.

3) Council's leading (only?) proponent of the DRL, Josh Matlow, will continue to spend 5% of the time talking up the DRL and the other 95% talking down the Scarborough subway.

(I'd bet money on #1)

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

lol at your argument about the small section of Markham that is west of the 404.

LOL - you don't know what you're talking about all!
Some people on this board know lots of stuff and have strong opinions different than me; good on em.
Some people on this board don't know jack and have opinions just as strong. You're clearly in that category.

I don't even know what you're talking about - you probably don't either, but perhaps it's Leitchcroft, which is actually west of Leslie; there's nothing right now on the block west of the 404, except a Hilton and some other offices. LOL!

The subway runs UNDER YONGE - that's Markham, not Richmond Hill. Come back after you've googled "Langstaff Gateway" or read back through these pages. There are plenty of people here skeptical about LG/Richmond Hill Centre and whether a subway is needed etc., but at least they know the plan exists.You're several km off the map.

LOL, indeed.

Im just going to assume that if vaughan fought for an extension of the spadina line and richmond hill is fighting for an extension of the yonge line that inevitably Markham will fight for an extension of the DRL to Highway 7 as well.. Clearly the world starts and finished at Highway 7.

Except none of that is happening and you know what happens when you assume.

Richmond Hill AND Markham AND Vaughan and York Region as a single entity are all asking for the same, single project. Markham did expect the planned Transit City Don Mills line would go north of Steeles but they have not asked for the DRL or any other subway to come north to Markham Centre or another point on Highway 7. MC is built around GO and Viva. LG is built around subway/GO/Viva/Transitway. Different plans, different kinds of 'hoods, different densities, different criteria. That's how planning works.

Highway 7 s not where the world starts, but it's certainly where continguous desnsity from Toronto continues until. It's not where the world starts, but the world sure doesn't STOP at Steeles. that's the delusion.

 

[Cobra]

Some people are passionate about this extension so I'm hoping not to offend anyone by saying...

What's wrong with an LRT from Steeles to Highway 7?

http://www.yorkregion.com/news-story/1433117-light-rail-transit-could-be-the-better-way/

For his part, York Region chairperson and CEO Bill Fisch, who is on the board of the Metrolinx transit authority, believes subways are the way to go in the southern half of the region.

South of Hwy. 7, a subway’s capacity is crucial for moving people and creating opportunities for intensification, but the rest of the region has other priorities, Mr. Fisch said.

“As much as I’m a strong proponent of subway . . . bus rapid transit and light rail transit are the two modes that will be good for the next 25 or 30 years,” he said.

and...

Residents who expect full-scale subway service in York Region should know that, according to the TTC’s own documents, not every subway train will come into the region, with many being turned around at Steeles Avenue until there is adequate demand up here, Mr. Henry-Cotnam said.

I'm just curious why the double standard of saying Scarborough should stick to LRT and Richmond Hill absolutely need the subway when it's clear the subway will be overkill for them at first and while severely deteriorate the service on the Yonge line.

Furthermore, that's a lot of capital to invest in a project that won't have the capacity to justify a full subway service while the Richmond Hill GO Station will be so close. Smarter used of funds should be LRT+GO RER for Richmond Hill.