Richmond Hill Yonge Line 1 North Subway Extension | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx

I'll tell you with the problem with this idea is In three words: Toronto, Toronto, Toronto. You ignore that Toronto is surrounded by 3 million suburbanites. It's damned fair to argue cities should have more power and no longer be "creatures of the province," get out from under the OMB etc. etc. etc. But when you treat Toronto as an exception you miss the whole problem. Treating cities as little isolated blocks where someone drew a line when Queen Victoria was on the throne is not how things get done in the 21st Century. You have to look at the urban region. It's not even debatable, in my opinion.

I'd also like to see the same powers extended to all of the large municipalities. Or at least the one is the GTHA

You also demonstrate a fundamental misunderstanding of the governance situation. The city doesn't "give" the province any powers at all. The only power the city has is power that the province, in its grand munificence, has seen fit to give it. You're right that it's antiquated but let's be clear on what's going on.

Of course I understand this. I believe my semantics may have let you to believe otherwise (I had a feeling that would happen :confused:). The whole point of that long ramble was about how the province strong-arms the municipalities too much. You know... "creature of the province" and what not. The city has no power over the province and obviously can't grant or take away power to/from the province. Only the province can do that. Maybe the federal government as well, but then we run into constitutional issues (ironically about the federal gov't encroaching on provincial jurisdiction).

As it stands, the City of Toronto Act already gives Toronto special treatment and its largely been squandered by the immaturity of its citizenry (See: Ford, Robert; election of; vehicle registration tax...) so the idea that Toronto (as opposed to the GTA or even the GTHA) is some special case is both wrong and even insulting, in my opinion..

I never said Toronto is some kind of special case. I'd like to see the same powers extended to the rest of the GTA and any other of the larger municipalities.

Munro is a very smart guy but also very Toronto-centric. To get back to this thread a little bit, Toronto, for all its booming, is not where most growth is taking place in this region. And speaking of straw men and red herrings, Metrolinx is a GTHA agency so Timmins has nothing to do with anything. (I could also be really contrarian and point out that if you want them to pay for transit in TO, maybe they should get a say!)

Metrolinx is an agency of the Province of Ontario. Of course everyone in Ontario gets a say. If a candidate for premier runs on the platform of Metrolinx taking over subways and then privatizing Metrolinx, and everyone in the GTA votes against that particular candidate while everyone in Ontario votes for that candidate... you get the point. I don't care where Metrolinx operates. As long as it's an agency of the Province of Ontario, everyone in Ontario (yes, even in Timmins) has a say over its operations.

To go back to my contrarian Timmins point, if the province is going to give some municipality billions of dollars and use Infrastructure Ontario to leverage the financing etc., it's hardly a ridiculous request that they own it. You could argue it either way but calling it "an incredible encroachment" when they're the ones funding it is almost (but not quite!) as nutty as the suggestion there are actual plans for Toronto to secede; where did THAT come from? The same people who want to de-amalgamate? And people wonder why nothing gets done in Toronto [shakeshead].

(I know it wasn't you who said that...)

Seceding is as nutty as de-amagamtion. It wasn't me who said that.

All that said, Metrolinx ALREADY owns Viva's bus lanes. And, for that matter, YRT contracts service out to Veolia. I don't think anyone knows. I don't think anyone cares. I don't think there is 1 of the 1 million+ people in York Region (including the 20+ members of regional council) who consider it "an incredible encroachment on municipal/regional jurisdiction."

Nobody cares up until the point where the province starts doing things that may be popular elsewhere in the province that nobody at the local level who's actually affected by the changes agrees with. They'll start caring when some MPs want to reduce GTA transit service levels because they happen to be a member of a party that gets its votes mainly from rural areas that want funding for their own programs. Part of the reason we have multi-level governance is to prevent this kind of thing from happening. If we're going to ignore this then we might as well begin uploading many more municipal responsibilities to the province.
 
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Once the city has more inhabitants than the rest of the province, and elects more MPPs than the rest of the province, it will effectively have the opportunity to change any provincial legislation.

Will that ever happen? 2011 Census shows Toronto has 2.6million people.....the total population of the province is 12.8 million.....what sort of growth rates are you anticipating that would see Toronto be more than half the province? ....and when they get there to, say, 50.1% you would have voting unanimity on something as major as separation from Ontario?
 
It's a good way to (to come back on thread) ensure that projects like this extension never gets built and that sprawl continues to crush everything around it, while Toronto goes about its merry business, passing illusory 1.75% tax increases and funding subways using monopoly money.

That's a good point. My previous proposal would have definitely make regional initiatives a very difficult to push forward. To amend my original idea, I'd like to see grater control over taxes and the power to veto provincial legislation of municipal/regional importance given to a GTA/GTHA regional government. I feel like that's a more appropriate level of government to control regional and urban issues such as transit.

I suppose these two powers would make the region an almost province-like entity, allowing the region to work together on issues such as transit, while limiting the urban-rural divide that we see in provincial politics. This would also give the region essentially full control over its development. That can only be a good thing.
 
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Metrolinx is an agency of the Province of Ontario. Of course everyone in Ontario gets a say. If a candidate for premier runs on the platform of Metrolinx taking over subways and then privatizing Metrolinx, and everyone in the GTA votes against that particular candidate while everyone in Ontario votes for that candidate... you get the point. I don't care where Metrolinx operates. As long as it's an agency of the Province of Ontario, everyone in Ontario (yes, even in Timmins) has a say over its operations.

I know we're not entirely on different pages. To be clear, I have at least as little faith in Hudak as you. I'd like to see Metrolinx further empowered to act almost as a regional government, not privatized or disbanded and not left as the ineffective middle-man it now is.
The question really relevant here is what the revenue tools are and how Metrolinx is funded. I mean, as it stands, do we care what someone in Timmins has to say about GO? Metrolinx is a provincial agency but it's mandate is limited; it's a regional agency. Heck, I don't want to guess at its recognition numbers in the GTA but I'm guessing they're almost non-existent in Timmins and they don't care much about when GO is electrifying.
That said, presumably the revenue tools will include a mix of regional and provincial taxes. The idea will no doubt to balance this concern, so people in Timmins neither carry too much of the burden, nor bitch too much.

Nobody cares up until the point where the province starts doing things that may be popular elsewhere in the province that nobody at the local level who's actually affected by the changes agrees with. They'll start caring when some MPs want to reduce GTA transit service levels because they happen to be a member of a party that gets its votes mainly from rural areas that want funding for their own programs. Part of the reason we have multi-level governance is to prevent this kind of thing from happening. If we're going to ignore this then we might as well begin uploading many more municipal responsibilities to the province.

But this happens anyway. Harris gutted TTC and I think the (metaphorical) people in Timmins were probably thrilled about it. I have mixed feelings about uploading high-order TTC service but clearly something needs to change. Would an empowered Metrolinx prevent such a thing from happening again? I think it would. Legislation is power but so is money and what you're talking about, at least in part, is the disconnect between the responsibilities given to municipalities and their relative lack of funding, because of the leash the province keeps them on. So when the TTC lost its provincial subsidy it had basically nothing it could do, except jack up fares. And then, as I referenced, the province gave them more taxation powers and the city elected a mayor explicitly opposed to making use of them; he actually likes the city being treated like a child and so it is.

That's a good point. My previous proposal would have definitely make regional initiatives a very difficult to push forward. To amend my original idea, I'd like to see grater control over taxes and the power to veto provincial legislation of municipal/regional importance given to a GTA/GTHA regional government. I feel like that's a more appropriate level of government to control regional and urban issues such as transit.

I suppose these two powers would make the region an almost province-like entity, allowing the region to work together on issues such as transit, while limiting the urban-rural divide that we see in provincial politics. This would also give the region essentially full control over its development. That can only be a good thing.

I can get behind that. :) I think Metrolinx can be and should be that level, but not without some changes to the status quo. Politicians (especially Toronto council!) should be out of the process. Again, there are all sorts of ways to finesse how such a governance structure would work but Anne Golden did a study on it like 20 years ago and I think Metrolinx is a good start down that road. They need to be strengthened, not put under Hudak's thumb.


I'm happy TOareaFan debunked the notion Toronto is close to some sort of demographic coup. On the contrary, as I already noted, the increasing trend is for Toronto to be the urban hub of a larger suburban region; like it or not. Separating from Ontario politically is as pure a fantasy as it literally separating an
 
But this happens anyway. Harris gutted TTC and I think the (metaphorical) people in Timmins were probably thrilled about it.

We gotta stop picking on the good people of Timmins :rolleyes:

Harris gutted TTC… Would an empowered Metrolinx prevent such a thing from happening again? I think it would. Legislation is power but so is money and what you're talking about, at least in part, is the disconnect between the responsibilities given to municipalities and their relative lack of funding, because of the leash the province keeps them on. So when the TTC lost its provincial subsidy it had basically nothing it could do, except jack up fares. And then, as I referenced, the province gave them more taxation powers and the city elected a mayor explicitly opposed to making use of them; he actually likes the city being treated like a child and so it is.

I have little doubt that it would. The exact purpose of the veto power and control over taxation I described is designed to prevent something exactly like the Harris-era gutting of the TTC from ever happening again. The province will never be able to unilaterally act on municipal/regional issues (such as transit) without approval from the region.

And of course, our region is so large that with the additional controls over taxation, we should have no problem funding the TTC and other transit agencies. By eliminating that provincial funding (it acts as a bargaining chip for the province) and by giving the region veto powers, the province is essentially powerless to assert any kind of control over transit and many other local issues. As you said, money is power.

The only problem I see with this proposal is how do we go about getting the province to agree to essentially give up their control and influence over local issues in the region that represents over half the province. Taxation formulas will also have to be worked out. The province will have much services in the region replaced by regional taxes, so it makes sense that provincial taxes would be lower in the region. Working out how to do that fairly will be a challenge.
 
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That's a good point. My previous proposal would have definitely make regional initiatives a very difficult to push forward. To amend my original idea, I'd like to see grater control over taxes and the power to veto provincial legislation of municipal/regional importance given to a GTA/GTHA regional government. I feel like that's a more appropriate level of government to control regional and urban issues such as transit.

I suppose these two powers would make the region an almost province-like entity, allowing the region to work together on issues such as transit, while limiting the urban-rural divide that we see in provincial politics. This would also give the region essentially full control over its development. That can only be a good thing.

I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly. The Constitution divides power between the Federal Government or the Provinces. It does this by setting out a few dozen subjects, and saying who gets to legislate on what (plus a catch-all provision for unlisted items). So when you say veto, you're saying that the Province is granting the power to this regional body, created by the province, to veto provincial statutes that regional officials don't like? The problem is that such an arrangement is hard to entrench--the legislature can undo that deal anytime it wants, since it makes all the rules about municipalities. And any attempt to change the constitution gets messy very fast. (There is the possibility of a provincial constitution, but that is an undeveloped area of law, and I don't see anyone setting down that path without a very good reason. BC has a statute they call their Constitution--actually a regular law they can undo whenever they want--but it's not coincidental that Quebec is the province that most frequently raises the issue of a real provincial constitution...)
 
Will that ever happen? 2011 Census shows Toronto has 2.6 million people.....the total population of the province is 12.8 million.....what sort of growth rates are you anticipating that would see Toronto be more than half the province? ....and when they get there to, say, 50.1% you would have voting unanimity on something as major as separation from Ontario?

Toronto might be 2.6 million, but if you start including the suburbs it get's bigger. If you look at Greater Toronto Area (GTA) (throwing in the adjacent regions of York, Peel, and Durham ... along with Halton), and you get 6.0 million people. That's about 47% of the province. Go a bit further and throw in Hamilton and Niagara, and you have the Golden Horseshoe, with 7.0 million people (55% of Ontario). And then if you go a bit further and include stuff like Kitchener, Barrie, Guelph, etc., you get the Greater Golden Horseshoe at 8.8 million (68% of Ontario, and 26% of Canada).

The next most populous province is Quebec, with only 7.9 million people. After that is British Columbia with only 4.4 million. The City of Toronto with 2.6 million is bigger than Manitoba and Saskatchewan combined. The 7 smallest provinces and territories combined are less than Toronto.

And 8.8 million in the Greater Golden Horseshoe? Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population there are 152 countries smaller than that. Including New Zealand (only 4.5 million), Ireland (4.6 million), Isreal (8.1 milliion), Hong Kong (only 7.2 million), Norway (5.1 million), Denmark (5.6 million) and Finland (5.5 million).

Not only could the Toronto area be a province. It could be a country.

But I don't think it would happen. Nor am I aware of any sitting politician who really supports this.
 
I'm not sure what you mean by this exactly. The Constitution divides power between the Federal Government or the Provinces. It does this by setting out a few dozen subjects, and saying who gets to legislate on what (plus a catch-all provision for unlisted items). So when you say veto, you're saying that the Province is granting the power to this regional body, created by the province, to veto provincial statutes that regional officials don't like? The problem is that such an arrangement is hard to entrench--the legislature can undo that deal anytime it wants, since it makes all the rules about municipalities. And any attempt to change the constitution gets messy very fast. (There is the possibility of a provincial constitution, but that is an undeveloped area of law, and I don't see anyone setting down that path without a very good reason. BC has a statute they call their Constitution--actually a regular law they can undo whenever they want--but it's not coincidental that Quebec is the province that most frequently raises the issue of a real provincial constitution...)

Could there not be a clause in the law that creates the Toronto regional government stating that the Province cannot disband or otherwise modify the borders of the new Toronto regional government without approval from the Region? Perhaps we could scale the 7/50 formula down to regional levels. This would require two thirds of the municipalities representing at least 50% of the Region's population to approve disbandment of the Region or modifying its borders.

I'm not at all familiar with these legalities, but I have a feeling that there's be some kind of framework to prevent this catch 22 I've described. A law dictating how itself can be modified seems like the kind of thing that we'd (usually) want to avoid. If this is true we'd probably have to go to the federal level to setup the formula for dissolving regional governments. Though that move would most likely violate the Constitution. I don't believe that the Constitution says anything about regional governments, however it does say that municipalities are under the control of the provinces. In a court case I doubt that the judges would allow the feds to control how regional governments are managed just because they aren't explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. It could successfully be argued that provincial control over municipalities implicitly extends to their control over regional governments.

Assuming that the catch 22 I described above won't work, we'd need a Constitutional change to prevent the province from meddling with the regional government.
 
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I don't believe so as that would give the region a strong level of autonomy which would create a true 3rd level of government, which I'm sure has some big legal issues. You have to remember that municipalities are
Corporations owned by the province and tasked to run the city, it just so happens that this corporation has democratically elected board members.
 
So what you're saying is that even the idea of giving regional government the power to veto provincial legislations as well as requiring regional approval to disband the region will violate the Constitution, as that interferes with the provincial ability to run the city.

The only potential way I see us getting around the Constitutional issues is if the law creating the region says that the province can unilaterally disband the region only with a supermajority of votes at the legislature. This would technically give the province a degree of control over municipalies. But even then, I'm not confident that the Supreme Court would be okay with this circumvention of the Constitutionally prevented right that provinces have to control municipalities.

And then there's still the question of if it's legal for a law to dictate how itself can be changed
 
Could there not be a clause in the law that creates the Toronto regional government stating that the Province cannot disband or otherwise modify the borders of the new Toronto regional government without approval from the Region? Perhaps we could scale the 7/50 formula down to regional levels. This would require two thirds of the municipalities representing at least 50% of the Region's population to approve disbandment of the Region or modifying its borders.

Generally, no. The baseline understanding in our legal system is that the Legislature is supreme, and is free to change its mind. It can pass a law today saying one thing, and another tomorrow which says the opposite. Indeed, it can revoke early legislation either explicitly, or implicitly, i.e. to the extent that their is a conflict between the new and the old. In the latter case a court would say that the intention must have been to revoke the old, incompatible, law.

There are two ways around this problem. One is a Constitution, which is entrenched. The other are so-called quasi-constitutional laws like provincial human rights acts, etc. They're a bit more "sticky", and will tend to say things like "please interpret subsequent laws passed by the legislature in accordance with the following principles...", which makes it harder to argue that the legislature intended to undo its earlier work by mere implication. But at the end of the day they're just regular laws, and they can either be repealed by majority vote, or on a case-by-case basis by simply including a provision in a subsequent law to the effect that it operates notwithstanding the earlier quasi-constitutional statute.

I'm not at all familiar with these legalities, but I have a feeling that there's be some kind of framework to prevent this catch 22 I've described. A law dictating how itself can be modified seems like the kind of thing that we'd (usually) want to avoid. If this is true we'd probably have to go to the federal level to setup the formula for dissolving regional governments. Though that move would most likely violate the Constitution. I don't believe that the Constitution says anything about regional governments, however it does say that municipalities are under the control of the provinces. In a court case I doubt that the judges would allow the feds to control how regional governments are managed just because they aren't explicitly mentioned in the Constitution. It could successfully be argued that provincial control over municipalities implicitly extends to their control over regional governments.

Both the provinces and the federal government source their authority in the Constitution (see sections 91 & 92 of the Constitution Act, 1867). Don't think of it as a federal document in the sense of belonging to the Federal government. As I said, the powers are divided, and even if you could say that the matter of "regional" governments is within Ottawa's jurisdictions (perhaps by appealing to the pro-Feds catch-all provision, "POGG"), which I doubt given the explicit mention of municipalities, you'd still be at the Federal government's mercy.

Assuming that the catch 22 I described above won't work, we'd need a Constitutional change to prevent the province from meddling with the regional government.

Amendments that relate to local matters don't necessarily require the consent of other provinces under a 7/50 formula. I don't think that will realistically occur, but so long as this is framed as an Ontario-specific issue, rather than the creation of a new constitutional entity, then you may not necessarily have to canvas PEI's opinion on the matter. Also, there is the tricky issue of "Provincial Constitutions"--that is, Ontario's own constitution. In this province, like Britain, it's mostly unwritten, but some suggest that we could change that to allow some sort of entrenchment. Probably not giving the region a veto, but perhaps a document that had as one effect the creation of the region, a clause saying that general legislation touching on municipalities would not effect Toronto unless that is explicitly stated, and/or a clause that said the region could not be dissolved absent a 66% legislative supermajority. Again, it's *highly* speculative.

I have confidence that eventually these sorts of transit issues will be decided on a more regional basis. Someone earlier referred to lines drawn during Victoria's reign as dictating transit issues today. I'm not sure that's entirely correct. Toronto used to be much smaller, and it sat in a county that stretched all the way up to lake Simcoe. The importance of Steeles as a regional border only dates to 1953 when Metro was severed from York County, and at the time Metro contained 13 municipalities, not the 6 that amalgamated to form the present city of Toronto. Things change. As discussed ad nauseum there are models to choose from in other cities, and I don't think we should get too sidetracked debating the specific constitutional form such an arrangement should take.
 
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We're getting off-thread and into a legal quagmire :)

I think the short answer is that you can create an agency or some sort of regional government, even, but you can't put it on the legal standing that would allow it to overrule a provincial law (say, like amalgamation) without ending up at the Supreme Court.

Personally, I believe the Constitution requires an amendment to recognize the country's urban character, giving cities way more status than they have now. I'm not a lawyer so far be it from me to know what that would mean in reality. In the meantime, you just have to accept that PEI (whose population is, what, smaller than Richmond Hill's?) has way way way more power than Toronto. That's Canada. To amend the CA you'd need 2/3 of the provinces on board...I'd like to think it will happen eventually but we're not there yet.

Oh, and I was being a bit glib when I said the borders were drawn in the Victorian era. Yes, Metro was created in 1953 and the regions in 1971. My point stands that those line on the maps do not reflect the demographic reality today. The problem in 1998 wasn't amalgamation but that no effort was made to implement a proper system; it was just Harris going, "1 government is more efficient than 6!" A proper restructuring back then might have made things better for the city and recognized how the region was growing, but that wasn't his priority.

Regional government (in whatever form) is a whole other issue. One of the candidates (is it Socknacki? Or Tory?) was talking about convening a GTA mayor's caucus; that's a good start, as is Metrolinx. To conclude back on thread, I think this particular project really shows what happens when a regional priority (i.e. building transit-oriented development) runs up against the governance structure: no money for transit, no ability for a muni to finance crucial infrastructure on its own, competing interests between the city and region, infrastructure shortfalls etc.
 
Taking the 60 Steeles West Bus seriously makes me question the will to live on a daily basis. If they're not going to extend the subway to Highway 7 SOMETHING needs to happen to relieve the area. Whether you're driving, or taking transit it's absolutely congested. Maybe modify the intersection for a double left onto Steeles with one left turn lane being transit only, likewise for the Eastbound Left turn. The intersection needs to be re-jigged when the subway comes (for the bus portals, etc) maybe they could expand it ahead of time?
 
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