scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
If 'meh' is what you all want for the site where our main street meets the waterfront, you certainly won't be disappointed with Pier 27.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I really can't see the similarity with City Park. Whatever that development's merits, it's a purely residential development in a purely residential neighbourhood. It's built on side streets, and it's not an unpleasant place to live. I can't fathom the similarity to a site on the waterfront at the foot of Yonge Street, intersecting with the waterfront's main street being developed as a high-end exclusive condo superblock.
Zephyr
Active Member
I shall repeat, in different words, the same thought.
Modernism is NOT the reason for this view that is being supported on this thread regarding Pier 27 (aA). It has nothing to do with dogmatic Modernism either. There are Modernists and non-Modernists that support a certain view of building and zoning on the waterfront, that could be equally opposed by Modernists and non-Modernists from another perspective. This is not a defining issue for Modernism because there happens to be a Modernist designed building involved.
Modernism is NOT the reason for this view that is being supported on this thread regarding Pier 27 (aA). It has nothing to do with dogmatic Modernism either. There are Modernists and non-Modernists that support a certain view of building and zoning on the waterfront, that could be equally opposed by Modernists and non-Modernists from another perspective. This is not a defining issue for Modernism because there happens to be a Modernist designed building involved.
smuncky
Senior Member
i'm kind of divided about this discussion although i'm leaning towards one side.
i can see where US and AP are coming from and in my view have made good points about it. why does there have to be retail everywhere? just walk a couple blocks west (not even that much) and you'll hit restaurants, bars, and other retail. even across from the toronto star building you have retail on the bottom floor of the condo towers there. a quite park that's tucked away from the gardiner behind this development sounds like a really nice place just to chill and relax. sort of like a continuation of the park area in behind the westin. there is no retail there and it makes a great public place for people to use in a variety of ways.
people will go to this park either way because it's the beginning of yonge st. it won't matter if there's a coffee shop or w/e. a coffee shop would be nice, but would it be the main attraction? no. this area will thrive with or w/o any sort of retail.
i can see where US and AP are coming from and in my view have made good points about it. why does there have to be retail everywhere? just walk a couple blocks west (not even that much) and you'll hit restaurants, bars, and other retail. even across from the toronto star building you have retail on the bottom floor of the condo towers there. a quite park that's tucked away from the gardiner behind this development sounds like a really nice place just to chill and relax. sort of like a continuation of the park area in behind the westin. there is no retail there and it makes a great public place for people to use in a variety of ways.
people will go to this park either way because it's the beginning of yonge st. it won't matter if there's a coffee shop or w/e. a coffee shop would be nice, but would it be the main attraction? no. this area will thrive with or w/o any sort of retail.
ShonTron
Moderator
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Smucky: My problem has been more with the site plan. Sure there's plenty of other ways to provide "engagement" than restaurants, cafes or shopping, but these would be the most realistic types of 'public' uses if we have a profit-motivated developer here. It's car-centric for the residents (with plenty of pavement and residence entrances away from the street), there's no incentive to use the boardwalk/promenade, it will look like an extension of the towers-in-the-park private property.
People will need more a reason to go to the park sliver than the simple fact that it is the foot of Yonge. There needs to be a draw because it is bounded by the slip on the west, and Redpath on the east, and Clewes architecture alone won't cut it. Even a restaurant would provide some sort of activity, eyes on the street if you will, than the back of an exclusive condo, a signal that yes, you are welcome here.
It's not the modernism that bugs me (though it is modernist Clewes architecture), modernist architecture can even be very urban - look at NPS/City Hall, or Clewes' earlier work like Spire or 18 Yorkville or especially Mozo, but this is suburban modernist closer to the spirit of Le Corbusier or Robert Moses.
People will need more a reason to go to the park sliver than the simple fact that it is the foot of Yonge. There needs to be a draw because it is bounded by the slip on the west, and Redpath on the east, and Clewes architecture alone won't cut it. Even a restaurant would provide some sort of activity, eyes on the street if you will, than the back of an exclusive condo, a signal that yes, you are welcome here.
It's not the modernism that bugs me (though it is modernist Clewes architecture), modernist architecture can even be very urban - look at NPS/City Hall, or Clewes' earlier work like Spire or 18 Yorkville or especially Mozo, but this is suburban modernist closer to the spirit of Le Corbusier or Robert Moses.
smuncky
Senior Member
i'll agree with you about the site plan. but i don't think that having a restaurant will draw people in because they won't be able to see it from yonge anyway. so i'll say this; i have a problem with the site plan as you do, but i don't have a problem with there not being retail/commercial space as i don't think that's important in that area.
concerning redpath, that won't be there in the near future i don't think. all the waterfront attractions will somehow connect and right now this project is sitting all alone which is on of the reasons why i think people have such negativity towards it. if we saw renderings/plans of how it would interact with the future developments along the waterfront, we would judge it a lot differently.
concerning redpath, that won't be there in the near future i don't think. all the waterfront attractions will somehow connect and right now this project is sitting all alone which is on of the reasons why i think people have such negativity towards it. if we saw renderings/plans of how it would interact with the future developments along the waterfront, we would judge it a lot differently.
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Well worded, excellent post.
_______________________________________________
About Pier27,
I believe there are two alternatives.
When retail has been considered in the nether regions of three pages ago, it is always been relegated to the realm of fast food, dry cleaning, convenience stores and other public conveniences. In a past post I referenced Jamie Kennedy as a potential candidate for the space at the foot of the mighty 'superblock.' While partially kidding at the time, the more I think about it, the more I'm intrigued by it. Why not line up a *relatively* high-profile chef and use the space as a 'boutique restaurant;' to quote developer jargon. The views would be spectacular and in appropriate weather a patio could further guests' culinary 'experience' (there I go with the jargon again).
My second proposal contrasts the first in that it does not propose any retail. On the 'Great East Lawn' a small podium/stage could provide a space for impromptu concerts. These could either be open for the public to perform, or run on a schedule, organized by either Pier27 itself, or the city (probably the latter). I was inspired when I visited New York where such concerts are common. While Toronto has a relatively active busking scene, sometimes I'm left...wanting more...out of my urban Toronto acoustic experience. New York's (I know I'm going to get blasted for this comparison) concerts benefited from their...'guerrilla' nature; an experience rarely felt outside Kensington, in Toronto.
smuncky
Senior Member
this almost sounds like the music garden which is one of my favorite spaces downtown. its secluded just enough to get away, but you're always reminded that you're in the city with the CN tower looming over you and the old silos to the west.
AndreaPalladio
Senior Member
Those are fine ideas, 5 months out of the year. No one will want to hanging out listening to improptu concerts down there between Thanksgiving and Victoria Day, with the cold wind whipping in off the lake.
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
I believe we saw renderings a few months ago that showed an outdoor performance space, planned for the Corus office building close to Pier 27.
alklay gives us, "Having commercial, residential and work places all mixed up and close to each other meant that the block/neighbourhood was more busy than if there was only one or two uses ... and a busy lively block attracts more people and businesses etc and on it goes. Give more people reasons to be in an area ( like the waterfront ) and you will end up with more people, more often." Yet there are plenty of vital neighbourhoods ( vast acres of them in fact, residential low rise streets stretching from Etobicoke to the Beach for instance ) that are highly successful and don't fit that model - they're so popular that first time buyers find it increasingly difficult to move into them. So, mixed-use isn't a universal panacea - on the waterfront or anywhere else. Though, even if it was, it is worth noting that nearbye Harbourfront, the Sony Centre, and several large sports stadiums already provide the "entertain-me" crowd with plenty to do in the summer - and even winter - months. alklay's beloved TD Centre superblock, and the Bata headquarters, are a couple of buildings that aren't jumpin' with pedestrian consumerism at street level either, yet they're still prized - for their design, and beauty, and count me in as one who is currently mourning the passing of one of them even though it will make way for a fine new museum and cultural centre.
I don't see superblocks fronting on Bay Street either - other than City Hall and the TD Centre - both of which are internationally recognised for their design. The block that contains the Eaton Centre has a big office building, a church, a hotel, a big retail outlet, and Ryerson - all of which were designed at different times and have separate purposes and identities. Walk south from Bloor and you pass rows of condo towers with not very interesting retail at street level that don't seem very superblocky either.
I'm not sure why Pier 27 provokes this hate-on for "rich people" in some quarters, either. Do we really need to run them out of the central waterfront? Why the big show of proletarian revolution? TREB stats don't, in fact, show the downtown as a place where properties sell for all that much compared to many other parts of the city. With the St Jamestown incubator known as City Place growing apace I don't see much chance of that changing any time soon either.
Also, the notion that the point at which the landfill meets the lake at the foot of Yonge Street grants that spot some great cultural significance still passes me by.
alklay gives us, "Having commercial, residential and work places all mixed up and close to each other meant that the block/neighbourhood was more busy than if there was only one or two uses ... and a busy lively block attracts more people and businesses etc and on it goes. Give more people reasons to be in an area ( like the waterfront ) and you will end up with more people, more often." Yet there are plenty of vital neighbourhoods ( vast acres of them in fact, residential low rise streets stretching from Etobicoke to the Beach for instance ) that are highly successful and don't fit that model - they're so popular that first time buyers find it increasingly difficult to move into them. So, mixed-use isn't a universal panacea - on the waterfront or anywhere else. Though, even if it was, it is worth noting that nearbye Harbourfront, the Sony Centre, and several large sports stadiums already provide the "entertain-me" crowd with plenty to do in the summer - and even winter - months. alklay's beloved TD Centre superblock, and the Bata headquarters, are a couple of buildings that aren't jumpin' with pedestrian consumerism at street level either, yet they're still prized - for their design, and beauty, and count me in as one who is currently mourning the passing of one of them even though it will make way for a fine new museum and cultural centre.
I don't see superblocks fronting on Bay Street either - other than City Hall and the TD Centre - both of which are internationally recognised for their design. The block that contains the Eaton Centre has a big office building, a church, a hotel, a big retail outlet, and Ryerson - all of which were designed at different times and have separate purposes and identities. Walk south from Bloor and you pass rows of condo towers with not very interesting retail at street level that don't seem very superblocky either.
I'm not sure why Pier 27 provokes this hate-on for "rich people" in some quarters, either. Do we really need to run them out of the central waterfront? Why the big show of proletarian revolution? TREB stats don't, in fact, show the downtown as a place where properties sell for all that much compared to many other parts of the city. With the St Jamestown incubator known as City Place growing apace I don't see much chance of that changing any time soon either.
Also, the notion that the point at which the landfill meets the lake at the foot of Yonge Street grants that spot some great cultural significance still passes me by.
AndreaPalladio
Senior Member
I'm counting the days until "Where The Landfill Meets The Lake" makes it into some marketeers bumpf for a new apartment building!
Urban Shocker
Doyenne
Yeah.
"Welcome to the Residences of Landfill, where the proles roam freely through the ground floor lobby and the owners welcome them into their suites and serve them afternoon tea ..."
"Welcome to the Residences of Landfill, where the proles roam freely through the ground floor lobby and the owners welcome them into their suites and serve them afternoon tea ..."
digitalcabana
Active Member
Photo
From Building magazine:
From Building magazine:
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
From Building magazine:
I'd say the "No Trespassing" and "Stay Off The Grass" signs are missing from that rendering, but since that stretch of the waterfront promises to be a ghost-town, they won't be needed.
We still do not know what will be built on the right side of that rendering where the lawn is. It will not stay lawn.
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