Toronto wants subways

[nfitz]

But a substantial fuel surgarge won't work: people will simply cross the municipal border and buy their gas in 905.

Ah, then you put transponders on the vehicles, and charge the equivalent of a tank of gas for any vehicle crossing the boundary.

 

[Rainforest]

Ah, then you put transponders on the vehicles, and charge the equivalent of a tank of gas for any vehicle crossing the boundary.

Good joke.

If seriously, the cost of enforcement will exceed the revenue ... and if a number of such restrictive measures is applied consistently, at some point the residents and businesses alike will start voting with their feet. Toronto would risk being left with a good transit system, but no riders : )

 

[nfitz]

Good joke.

Yes but no more so than someone complaining that his car was going faster than the streetcars, when the street was moving at 40 km/hr!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

While it is true that we do not have any formal statistics on the travel patterns, it is conceivable that a large portion of trips along the Eglinton corridor will cross Jane or Don Mills. Examples: west to Spadina subway; west to Yonge subway and North York; Vic park to Yonge subway and North York; Vic park to Spadina subway and York U. Just select 10 or so origin / destination pairs at random, and probably 60 or 70% would involve an extra transfer if Jane or Don Mills is a mode junction.

Basically, Eglinton subway truncated at Jane and Don Mills would exhibit same problem as Sheppard subway truncated at Don Mills.

In some ways, a 'crosstown' Eglinton subway would be a solution where no problem exists...at least, we don't know if there's a problem. We don't know how many people will really be affected by a transfer at Don Mills - which is a real concern since the TTC has previously based so much of its growth/operations policies on calculations of net benefit. The overlapping routes disperse by that point, and the Eglinton bus itself, which is reasonably busy but decidedly not among the busiest routes in the city, is all that remains going east of there. It's true that picking origin/destination pairs at random means many trips could benefit from a second crosstown line (the Bloor/Danforth line already does this and only a few minutes away from Eglinton, and they intersect at Kennedy so a 'crosstown' Eglinton won't even serve a new market) but unless people are actually travelling between these pairs in reasonably large numbers, the benefit is theoretical. It's one reason why, despite needing underground infratructure in the central stretch to offer any revolutionary transit improvements to the corridor, I've never thought of an Eglinton subway as the highest priority (it's relative standing does increase when the option of spending $3+ billion on a streetcar ROW that is variously underground or stops at red lights is proposed, though).

I am not suggesting Eglinton subway from Jane to Don Mills with LRT appendices. If such subway existed already, I would rather suggest gradually expanding it until it reaches a meaningful length.

But starting from scratch, we will get a better return on investment if LRT technology is selected for this corridor. As LRT, this line will go further and serve more passengers for every chunk of investment.

I know you're not suggesting we build it, and you know I know that because you were talking about other options. I agree that if any line exists as one thing, it should (within reason, and to logical terminus points) be extended as more of that one thing rather than grafting something else on because politicians think the other thing is cooler.

Besides that, why on earth do people refer to being "served" by transit or "accessing" transit as if there's one level/degree/quality of transit? Transit is not electricity or water. There clearly isn't one uniform "transit" and there clearly isn't one uniform "rapid transit" that "serves" people. A bus in mixed traffic may serve you better than an express subway if it gets you where you're going faster. A streetcar in mixed traffic may serve you better than a subway network if you can get between A and B without transferring or walking up/down a hundred stairs. Transit planning should be about fulfilling needs, not receiving/doling out something with higher status.

 

[drum118]

Wait sorry ...
I thought that ridership at RHC at 2031 would be huge ... weren't they predicting around 100,000 riders a day? Making it one of the busiest stations on the entire subway network!! ?
Or was that by 2050?

What's the daily prediction for 2031 then?

Yes, but Metrolinx sees only 8,800 riders at peak time using the subway.

That works out to be a train every 3.4 minutes using the new rocket.

Don't forget you cannot leave RHC with full load as were are you going to put riders at other station along the line?

TTC is looking at 1,100 for the the rocket as crush load.

Here is something:

3: According to Metrolinx own numbers for 2031, they only see 8,800 riders at peak time on the Yonge Subway extension at RHC.

4: Using 1,100 per the new Rocket Train, there is an requirement of eight trains an hour or one every 7.5 minutes. To leave room for the other stations, we need to use 500 and that works out to be 17.4 trains every 3.4 minutes.

On opening day, we will see a train every 15 minutes at the best time. This would mean every 3rd or more trains would go north based on headway after ATO goes in.

5: Using the figure of 8,800 and 135 riders per LRT, we need 65.18 LRT cars every .92 minutes. Using two LRT’s, we need 33 trains per hour at 1.82 minutes. Going to a three car unit, we need 22 trains every 2.72 minutes. This does not factor in if the LRT is on the surface or below, just moving riders.

If we look at an LRT system from day one from Steeles to RHC, you will need an LRT every eight minutes on the day of start up and 5 years before a subway would open.

If we use TTC figure of 200 per LRT, we just increase the headway 35% and reduce the number of vehicles by 40%

 

[taal]

If we have 500 boardings at RHC what are the current predictions for finch and steeles ... yes I assume some would get off but wouldn't it be close to 500 as well?

Or do I need to consider the fact that most trains (3/4 or 2/3) will originate from finch?
In other words, what would be the arivial time of empty trains at finch on opening day.

 

[lordmandeep]

8800 riders only??


Possible...

that is like 4 fully packed Go Trains...

However considering how busy terminus end stations are already...

I would imagine they would not be to busy at first but as people get used to it, and transit lines are fixed. A subway station to downtown Toronto and elsewhere would be widely popular