Toronto wants subways

[waterloowarrior]

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/toronto/archive/2009/01/19/to-spain-via-scarborough.aspx
Councillor Norm Kelly (Ward 40, Scarborough-Agincourt) has long been a believer in subways, and he fought long and hard to convince the TTC to spend the money to finish the Sheppard subway line to its intended conclusion, at Scarborough Town Centre. However, he lost that fight, and to show he’s no sore loser, he has now, as a board member of Metrolinx, thrown his weight behind its plan for Transit City, a network of dedicated streetcar lines criss-crossing Toronto. The first one, on Sheppard, will traverse his ward.

But Mr. Kelly still has a little thing for subways. Metrolinx just flew him to Spain for 10 days, which he spent checking out the Madrid rapid transit network. He was very impressed, he said, at the intricate weavings of subways, trains and light rail that connect at “mobility hubs†in the Spanish capital. “They have a lot of money,†he said. The formal tours lasted from 8 a.m. to about 4 p.m., but Mr. Kelly did some extra-curricular travel too: “I was on the subway at midnight and I was packed in like a sardine,†he said. “I wondered, ‘Where are all these people going?â€

Mayor David Miller is on the road, too; he’s apparently gone to Los Angeles to drum up some film business for Toronto. And we are all stuck back here in the snow. Oh well, I can’t say I mind. It’s lovely, fluffy stuff.

 

[AKS]

Well besides costing more to build. It would take forever for it to get built as well. From the lesson of the sheppard line, the 5.3-kilometre line between Yonge Street and Don Mills Road cost $993.9 million and took 4-5 years to build. With costs in inflation and other factors, it probably costs double and take years to build. LRT will be faster to put in place and less costly. It's not as convenient as subway but at least it will be up and running for people to use. And if there's not as many ridership as predicted, there will be less loss to absorb. Lesson to learn from the Sheppard Line.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/data/200012141513.shtml

 

[spider]

Not too bad but not good enough

Rainforest said:

That's true. But the original post of Spider described a competition between the car and the streetcar that happened on the stretch from Yonge to Bathurst. Obviously, the streetcar was making some stops along that stretch. The streetcar almost kept up with the car despite making those stops, I'd say this outcome is not too bad.

I stopped at every traffic light, almost as many stops as the Streetcar, probably not averaging better than 25KMH, seems to me he should have been away ahead if he wanted to. Otherwise, I repeat, what's the point of all this transit bafflegab?

 

[Dan416]

Well besides costing more to build. It would take forever for it to get built as well. From the lesson of the sheppard line, the 5.3-kilometre line between Yonge Street and Don Mills Road cost $993.9 million and took 4-5 years to build. With costs in inflation and other factors, it probably costs double and take years to build. LRT will be faster to put in place and less costly. It's not as convenient as subway but at least it will be up and running for people to use. And if there's not as many ridership as predicted, there will be less loss to absorb. Lesson to learn from the Sheppard Line.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/data/200012141513.shtml

From your link:

The 5.3-kilometre line between Yonge Street and Don Mills Road, to be built at a cost of $875-million, initially was to connect to a major hub at the Scarborough Town Centre to justify the huge capital costs.

But now it amounts to only half a line, scaled back after provincial cutbacks and a stagnant economy in the early 1990s. Too few riders, insufficient housing density and a shortage of non-residential development along Sheppard are among the reasons that operating costs are expected to exceed revenues.

Gee, I wonder why it diddn't have as high ridership as expected? Maybe because they built half a line?

And there has been lots of development on Sheppard in the meantime. (the article was from December 2000, just over 8 years ago).

 

[AKS]

From your link:



Gee, I wonder why it diddn't have as high ridership as expected? Maybe because they built half a line?

And there has been lots of development on Sheppard in the meantime. (the article was from December 2000, just over 8 years ago).

yea it's old but I don't know if it will be worth while to wait another 5-10 years to complete the line. And costs have gone up for construction. Can the communities wait that long? If it's light rail, it will finish within a few years and they can save costs for other lines. Why concentrate all the money on 1-2 lines when they can build 4-5 lines or more with the same budget.

 

[junctionist]

Sure, the communities can wait that long for rapid transit because of its desirability. Grade separated transit is worth a lot when it connects suburban centres and provides rapid transit where other rapid transit options are scarce. It's worth some LRT sacrifice.

 

[Rainforest]

I stopped at every traffic light, almost as many stops as the Streetcar, probably not averaging better than 25KMH, seems to me he should have been away ahead if he wanted to. Otherwise, I repeat, what's the point of all this transit bafflegab?

The problem is that transit signal priority is not working on St Clair streetcar route (I don't know why). So, the streetcar might arrive to the stop / intersection at the green phase, wait for the passengers to exit / board, meanwhile the red phase starts and it has to wait more for the next green.

But even with that, the streetcar almost kept up with you: you met it at Yonge, and still could see it behind you near Bathurst. I bet that if it ran in mixed traffic, it would be left far behind you and out of sight.

 

[Rainforest]

Well besides costing more to build. It would take forever for it to get built as well. From the lesson of the sheppard line, the 5.3-kilometre line between Yonge Street and Don Mills Road cost $993.9 million and took 4-5 years to build. With costs in inflation and other factors, it probably costs double and take years to build. LRT will be faster to put in place and less costly. It's not as convenient as subway but at least it will be up and running for people to use. And if there's not as many ridership as predicted, there will be less loss to absorb. Lesson to learn from the Sheppard Line.

Well, if Sheppard (or Sheppard / Finch) transit was starting now from scratch, I would suggest LRT technology. The line would be deliberately tunneled in the central section, Downsview to Kennedy, for higher speed and capacity (even though parts of that stretch have space for a median ROW).

But with a portion of the subway line built already, the incremental benefit of extending the line further will be higher than the benefit of adding a surface LRT section east of Don Mills. For the projected cost of Sheppard E LRT (800 M), the subway probably could be extended to Warden. Even though that extension would be several times shorter than Sheppard E LRT, it will be beneficial for a greater number of passengers traveling E-W. Finch E and Ellesmere buses could operate off the Sheppard / Warden subway terminus, whereas the planned (surface) LRT will be beneficial for those living or working near Sheppard only.

 

[AKS]

Well, if Sheppard (or Sheppard / Finch) transit was starting now from scratch, I would suggest LRT technology. The line would be deliberately tunneled in the central section, Downsview to Kennedy, for higher speed and capacity (even though parts of that stretch have space for a median ROW).

But with a portion of the subway line built already, the incremental benefit of extending the line further will be higher than the benefit of adding a surface LRT section east of Don Mills. For the projected cost of Sheppard E LRT (800 M), the subway probably could be extended to Warden. Even though that extension would be several times shorter than Sheppard E LRT, it will be beneficial for a greater number of passengers traveling E-W. Finch E and Ellesmere buses could operate off the Sheppard / Warden subway terminus, whereas the planned (surface) LRT will be beneficial for those living or working near Sheppard only.

so you're saying not to build the full line but to build a subway stretching to warden with the budget. That would be the same situation as sheppard had cuz it didn't stretch all the way and done half heartedly and had less riders than predicted. Anyhow it would take several years because nothing gets done on schedule. It's always way behind schedule and over budget. Took them 5 yrs to build 4 stations.

 

[drum118]

I love the comment at Monday night meeting with TTC staff.

Since the Yonge subway exist today, it logic to extended it to RHC that will only see 8,800 peak riders by 2031 even though it falls below the threshold of 10,000 for subway standards.

If that's the case, then why is the Sheppard subway not being extended?

The 10,000 figure is to be use for new lines only, not extension.

Then why display the ridership breakdown as to streetcars/brt/lrt/srt/subway/heavy rail at EA meetings.

Humm!!! Double standards

 

[Rainforest]

so you're saying not to build the full line but to build a subway stretching to warden with the budget.

Yes, this is what I would suggest at this point, with the intent to expand the line further after the scope of 25-year plan is completed and more funding is available.

That would be the same situation as sheppard had cuz it didn't stretch all the way and done half heartedly and had less riders than predicted.

The thing is, the cost of a line is approximately proportional to its length, but the benefit is greater when the line reaches a reasonable length. Passengers do not want to go out of their way to transfer via the short segment between Don Mills and Yonge. (The 139 Finch E bus is less popular than the branches running to Yonge.) But if the line is extended to at least Warden, then transferring to it will pay off.

Anyhow it would take several years because nothing gets done on schedule. It's always way behind schedule and over budget. Took them 5 yrs to build 4 stations.

The "over budget" risk exists for subway or LRT projects alike.

Building the subway extension will probably take longer than surface LRT, but those extra 3 or 4 years are worth it, given that the infrastructure will be in use for decades to come.

 

[nfitz]

I stopped at every traffic light, almost as many stops as the Streetcar, probably not averaging better than 25KMH, seems to me he should have been away ahead if he wanted to. Otherwise, I repeat, what's the point of all this transit bafflegab?

The point is to get morons out of their cars. Surely his time spent loading and unloading is going to be greater than yours.

And no one has ever claimed that if there are no traffic issues, that a streetcar, bus, or even subway train is going to be faster than a car.

Try thinking about it this way ... if they can convince everyone to stop driving except you ... then you'll save a lot of time with less congestion.

What the city needs to do is add their own gas tax - say $5 per litre. And jack up the cheap parking. $20 an hour minimium.

 

[Whoaccio]

Building the subway extension will probably take longer than surface LRT, but those extra 3 or 4 years are worth it, given that the infrastructure will be in use for decades to come.

Centuries, even. I know Toronto doesn't usually think in that timescale, but at points it is worth considering that this stuff will still have to be carrying people by 2109. Can't wait to see how the 501 car is doing in 2109.

 

[taal]

I love the comment at Monday night meeting with TTC staff.

Since the Yonge subway exist today, it logic to extended it to RHC that will only see 8,800 peak riders by 2031 even though it falls below the threshold of 10,000 for subway standards.

If that's the case, then why is the Sheppard subway not being extended?

The 10,000 figure is to be use for new lines only, not extension.

Then why display the ridership breakdown as to streetcars/brt/lrt/srt/subway/heavy rail at EA meetings.

Humm!!! Double standards

Wait sorry ...
I thought that ridership at RHC at 2031 would be huge ... weren't they predicting around 100,000 riders a day? Making it one of the busiest stations on the entire subway network!! ?
Or was that by 2050?

What's the daily prediction for 2031 then?

 

[Rainforest]

What the city needs to do is add their own gas tax - say $5 per litre. And jack up the cheap parking. $20 an hour minimium.

A parking surcharge is an option, and can generate some extra cash for public transit.

But a substantial fuel surgarge won't work: people will simply cross the municipal border and buy their gas in 905.