Toronto Urban Sprawl Compared to Other Cities

[W. K. Lis]

Any subdivision built in the last 20 years or so is like that. They used to build subdivisions with small strip malls within a short walking distance. But now they build those sprawling Smart Centers which are not at all pedestrian friendly.



Yes. I was told once by a TD security guard i wasn't allowed to walk across to the next plaza to get something to eat. So i had to drive over to the next plaza. it was about a 10 second drive. It's nice to know my banking fees are going towards paying security to keep Subway customers out of their parking lot.

Maybe that could be a anti-congestion suggest to be made to the city candidates (both mayor and councillor). Everyone should be allowed to use any parking lot, up to three hours unpaid, to the maximum for pay parking. If an employee uses the free parking lot for more than three hours, it'll become a taxable benefit.

 

[doady]

Mississauga only has one Smart Centre, compared to ten No Frills. Most people in the 905 do groceries at their neighbourhood grocery store, e.g. No Frills. And of course, No Frills is just one chain. In the 905, a grocery store is a 5 minute drive or 20 minute walk away at most. The idea that the 905 is devoid of regular grocery stores and 905ers need to do long commutes just to buy a loaf of bread is ridiculous. How out of touch can you be?

 

[freshcutgrass]

Your point has its analogue in the 905 too, i.e. much of the western corridor to Hamilton (south of the QEW) does have the sort of redeeming qualities you talk of, which is to say enormous urban potential (compared to newer suburban tracts north of the QEW for example), given the right planning decisions and infrastructure developments. It's already happening, by the way, it may just be hard to see given the overwhelming awfulness of much of the area.

I am talking about the 905. The 416 contains some "suburban" style built forms, but I don't think it qualifies as "sprawl".

 

[freshcutgrass]

One man's sprawl could be another man's growth.

Sprawl is growth...just not very smart growth.

Which is why I a laugh every time I hear the term "Smart Centre".

One man's "smart" is another man's "retarded"? ha ha

Maybe your bulldozer operator should be dropping the blade in Parkdale.

They already did...where do you think the Gardiner/Lakeshore came from?

And why did we ruin beautiful old inner city victorian waterfront neighbourhoods? To accommodate suburbanites and their cars.

Do you have any more nuggets of wisdom to share with the class?

 

[Tewder]

They already did...where do you think the Gardiner/Lakeshore came from?

And why did we ruin beautiful old inner city victorian waterfront neighbourhoods? To accommodate suburbanites and their cars.

Cause nobody in Toronto owns or uses a car?

 

[freshcutgrass]

In the 905, a grocery store is a 5 minute drive or 20 minute walk away at most. The idea that the 905 is devoid of regular grocery stores and 905ers need to do long commutes just to buy a loaf of bread is ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is the idea that anyone would go to the store to buy just a loaf of bread. It's less about proximity to shopping than it is shopping habits dictated by lifestyle. Please enlighten me....what percentage of 905'ers are walking 20 minutes to the grocery store...and 20 minutes back...carrying all their groceries? yea...exactly.

Where I live, I shop european style. I pick up stuff every day, cause it's right there (including a No Frills 1 block away). People in the burbs don't have this option...and don't have the time even if they did. People in the burbs generally need to make a giant food shopping trip every week...or two and stock up (and trust me...they aren't doing it by foot). This also means they are less likely to purchase fresh food, and more frozen or processed food....which is why they are fat and their kids are unhealthy...and walk around Walmart in hoodies and track pants.

The solution: NAPALM!!!

 

[freshcutgrass]

Cause nobody in Toronto owns or uses a car?

At the time it was built, few Old City of Toronto residents would have had much use for it, and its capacity. Same goes for the DVP. At least we had the brains to stop the Spadina Expressway.

The City should be tolling both the Gardiner and the DVP. Why they don't is a testament to our continued obsession with subsidizing car culture in spite of what we already know and say. It's coming...but will will kick and scream all the way. It's why we vote for Rob Ford.

 

[M.R.Victor]

Where I live, I shop european style. I pick up stuff every day, cause it's right there (including a No Frills 1 block away). People in the burbs don't have this option...and don't have the time even if they did. People in the burbs generally need to make a giant food shopping trip every week...or two and stock up (and trust me...they aren't doing it by foot). This also means they are less likely to purchase fresh food, and more frozen or processed food....which is why they are fat and their kids are unhealthy...and walk around Walmart in hoodies and track pants.

Although anecdotal, this is largely true. When I moved to Chinatown for university, I brought with me my suburban parents' shopping habits. I would try to lug a week's worth of groceries by foot (mind you, it was only a 10 minute walk) and when large portions of it went bad, I inadvertently switched to cans, preserves, and instant food. It was a case of monkey see monkey do, and believe it or not, old habits die hard. I now shop for groceries every two days, and my life is much healthier, pleasant and more efficient for it.

 

[Tewder]

I know legions of downtowners who schlepp themselves out to the burbs on weekends or evenings for a big grocery shop or to hit the big box stores. Not everyone who lives downtown is strolling around daily with a panier on their arm, and certainly not those with a family.

 

[freshcutgrass]

"
I know legions"

Well I guess the matter is settled then.

 

[TOareaFan]

Maybe that could be a anti-congestion suggest to be made to the city candidates (both mayor and councillor). Everyone should be allowed to use any parking lot, up to three hours unpaid, to the maximum for pay parking. If an employee uses the free parking lot for more than three hours, it'll become a taxable benefit.

Doesn't this just come down to mandated parking requirements. I doubt that the security guard (or his employer, be it TD or the plaza itself) are trying to add to congestion......what they are trying to do is to ensure that the parking spots in the plaza they pay rent to are there to serve their customers.

Parking requirements are established by size and type of tenancy. A bank, as an example, would have a lower parking requirement than a restaurant. An average bank customer would spend less time in the business than the average restaurant customer...so the spots churn faster and serve more people. If people are parking in spots in a plaza owned by "A" and designed to serve his bank tenant's needs and he allows those to be used by people visiting the plaza owned by "B" to sit for an hour in a restaurant there....he risks losing his bank tenant at the next lease renewal.

 

[TOareaFan]

I am talking about the 905. The 416 contains some "suburban" style built forms, but I don't think it qualifies as "sprawl".

That is a bit of a convenient definition of sprawl...no? So all those single family homes in Etobicoke aren't sprawl...but once we get over to Mississauga it is? Is there really that much of a difference between the built form of most of Etobicoke and most of Mississauga? Particlularly along the gardiner/qew.

 

[TOareaFan]

What's ridiculous is the idea that anyone would go to the store to buy just a loaf of bread.

Well here is one of those rare moments when you get to shatter a whole series of generalizations (myths?) in one example......I live in the 905...in a home in a subdivision that is less than 20 years old....can, and do, walk for some groceries and, since we like fresh bread with certain meals, my wife and I often take the dogs on a 10 minute walk to the specialty little Italian baker nearby to get nothing more than a loaf of bread. We seldom (don't think every really) do this in our pjs but I guess we could as I often see lots of people wandering around downtown Toronto wearing pj bottoms as some sort of fashion statement.

 

[freshcutgrass]

That is a bit of a convenient definition of sprawl...no?

Nope

The former Boroughs were/are subject to a different urban planning control and involved a relatively small and contained area. "Sprawl" is more than just low density residential housing. And yes...Etobicoke, North York and Scarb are different than their neighbours.

This is where Toronto's sprawl (the 905) differs from American sprawl. American sprawl involves 100% car oriented development that is uncontrolled and in many cases involves large tracts of unincorporated land. The 905 at least has some redeeming qualities, and the Ontario gov't has shown some leadership in stopping and reversing some of it.

 

[doady]

Yeah, all those commie-blocks and multi-storey strip malls in Mississauga are totally different from Etobicoke, North York and Scarborough. That's sprawl vs. non-sprawl right there.

What's ridiculous is the idea that anyone would go to the store to buy just a loaf of bread. It's less about proximity to shopping than it is shopping habits dictated by lifestyle. Please enlighten me....what percentage of 905'ers are walking 20 minutes to the grocery store...and 20 minutes back...carrying all their groceries? yea...exactly.

I never said that 905ers are walking 20 minutes to grocery stores en mass, or even that grocery stores are 20 minutes away, or that 905ers go to a store just buy a loaf of bread. I said a grocery store is maximum 20 minute walk away, and therefore walking to store is a possibility, and that buying a loaf of bread in their own neighbourhood is a possibility. Your point was that 905ers have no local options, not even for a loaf of bread. You brought up the the loaf of bread thing, not me. You don't even remember what you posted, you're arguing against a strawman, it is pathetic.