Toronto Union Station Revitalization | ?m | ?s | City of Toronto | NORR

Mercenary said:
Yes. I was referring to that on my 1st point.

Btw, have they resolved the height issue on the electrification of the Trains? I knew there was an issue in terms of the height of train-shed which is protected as a heritage artifact and thus they either had to lower the tracks or jack up the train-shed to create enough space to install the electrification wiring and equipment.

Because that could be another construction project that will start once the rehabilitation on Bay Concourse ends.
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I can see the bay concourse at least partially opening this year
 
Mercenary said:
Yes. I was referring to that on my 1st point.
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They will be working on the south concourse, but that’s an entirely separate from the unannounced (other than as the CEOs musing) platform and track reorganization. I don’t think anything of that scale and hasn’t been made public in 19 has a prayer of hope of finishing by 21. You’d be lucky if it starts in 21. So I’d say we are looking at another decade.

Perhaps they can call that the Union Station Reanimation Project

AoD
 
Mercenary said:
Btw, have they resolved the height issue on the electrification of the Trains?
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Actually it never was one. I'm not sure how that got started, but take a look at the catenary height in NYC Penn Station, the tunnels, London, Paris, etc, etc.

There may be a problem for DD EMUs with catenary, but chances are remote there'll ever be such a thing on Metrolinx tracks. It will be single deck EMUs. And electric locos are highly unlikely, but there's sufficient height there for those.

But all the other problems mentioned are still outstanding...
 
nfitz said:
I've seen DD EMUs with catenary in tunnels in other cities without an issue.
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So have I. They are shorter than the North Am types. I've rode on the Paris RER a number of times. In the US, Amtrak DD coaches can't be used in the east due to the overhead catenary in tunnels and under bridges.

Why doesn't Amtrak run double decker Superliners on the NEC.

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Raise the roof? Union Station reno runs into problem: New trains won't fit
www.theglobeandmail.com

Raise the roof? Union Station reno runs into problem: New trains won't fit

Metrolinx experts are scratching their heads after Toronto train-shed revitalization project proceeded without consideration of room for overhead wires for electric trains
www.theglobeandmail.com www.theglobeandmail.com

And just so it doesn't become an issue with a certain poster as to what I stated prior, here it is again:
There may be a problem for DD EMUs with catenary, but chances are remote there'll ever be such a thing on Metrolinx tracks. It will be single deck EMUs. And electric locos are highly unlikely, but there's sufficient height there for those.
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steveintoronto said:
So have I. They are shorter than the North Am types. I've rode on the Paris RER a number of times. In the US, Amtrak DD coaches can't be used in the east due to the overhead catenary in tunnels and under bridges.
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Double decker trains run into Penn Station through tunnels.

Not sure why you quoted the Union Station article - you don't mention it in your discussion. Union Station is not a tunnel.
 
nfitz said:
Double decker trains run into Penn Station through tunnels.
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They're not EMUs and they're not Amtrak,
nfitz said:
I've seen DD EMUs with catenary in tunnels in other cities without an issue.
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nfitz said:
Not sure why you quoted the Union Station article - you don't mention it in your discussion. Union Station is not a tunnel.
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The string is about Union Station, and the discussion was about shed height clearance for electrification. Which is why I wrote:
steveintoronto said:
There may be a problem for DD EMUs with catenary, but chances are remote there'll ever be such a thing on Metrolinx tracks. It will be single deck EMUs. And electric locos are highly unlikely, but there's sufficient height there for those.
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North Am gauge DD EMUs won't clear the Union Trainshed roof.

Now, are you proposing to use a UIC European loading gauge? Please, be my guest...
 
steveintoronto said:
They're not EMUs and they're not Amtrak,
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Not Amtrak - but I don't see why the operator makes any difference. Digging deeper it's electric locomotives currently - but they are ordering EMUs now. https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-orders-double-deck-emus-from-bombardier.html

Perhaps they can rip down that butt-ugly train shed. They lied through their teeth on why the needed to keep the trainshed (green roof!). I'm sure I'm not the only one who would celebrate the loss of that "heritage" feature!
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
They will be working on the south concourse, but that’s an entirely separate from the unannounced (other than as the CEOs musing) platform and track reorganization. I don’t think anything of that scale and hasn’t been made public in 19 has a prayer of hope of finishing by 21. You’d be lucky if it starts in 21. So I’d say we are looking at another decade.

Perhaps they can call that the Union Station Reanimation Project

AoD
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My understanding of that project is that it is not expected to re-arrange stairs or anything.. they are simply going to be closing tracks and infilling them at platform level.
 
innsertnamehere said:
My understanding of that project is that it is not expected to re-arrange stairs or anything.. they are simply going to be closing tracks and infilling them at platform level.
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That seems rather pointless to me. Isn't the bottleneck the relatively narrow stairs - that could be wider or better located with wider platforms?
 
innsertnamehere said:
My understanding of that project is that it is not expected to re-arrange stairs or anything.. they are simply going to be closing tracks and infilling them at platform level.
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You've got to be kidding me. Yet another half-job.

nfitz said:
That seems rather pointless to me. Isn't the bottleneck the relatively narrow stairs - that could be wider or better located with wider platforms?
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Not entirely - platform crowding is a big issue at rush, but it isn't the only issue - the quality/inadequacy of platform access by those pathetic staircases is one as well. The two are of course interrelated.

AoD
 
nfitz said:
Not Amtrak - but I don't see why the operator makes any difference. Digging deeper it's electric locomotives currently - but they are ordering EMUs now. https://www.railwaygazette.com/news...-orders-double-deck-emus-from-bombardier.html

Perhaps they can rip down that butt-ugly train shed. They lied through their teeth on why the needed to keep the trainshed (green roof!). I'm sure I'm not the only one who would celebrate the loss of that "heritage" feature!
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Once again you're creating an argument where none exists. My points and reference have been clear. Here's more reference as per Mercenary's post, and I can find reference to the problem, assurances that it will be addressed, and yet no proof of it having been, likely because it depends on the stock used as to whether it is a problem or not. I repeat, DD EMUs based on the present Thunder Bay DD carriage gauge are unlikely to be used, and thus the concern is rendered moot:
Mercenary said:
Btw, have they resolved the height issue on the electrification of the Trains? I knew there was an issue in terms of the height of train-shed which is protected as a heritage artifact and thus they either had to lower the tracks or jack up the train-shed to create enough space to install the electrification wiring and equipment.

Because that could be another construction project that will start once the rehabilitation on Bay Concourse ends.
Click to expand...
Metrolinx may have to raise roof at Union Station shed to fit new trains
Chris Fox, CP24.com
Published Friday, January 29, 2016 9:06AM EST
[...]
The initial design work for the renovations did not take into account the size of the new electric trains that will one day run through the station and as a result Metrolinx Spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins tells CP24 that the ceiling as it currently sits is “off by a couple of inches.”

In order to ensure the long term viability of the facility, experts at Metrolinx are now studying the viability of two options, Aikins says. The first option would see crews raise the ceiling while the second option would be to dig up the tracks and lower them slightly.

It is not immediately clear what impact the extra work will have on the $248 million budget for the project.

“We aren’t standing there scratching our heads,” Aikins said on Friday morning. “We’re putting together a plan that is most cost efficient and has the least impact on customers.”

According to a report in the Globe and Mail, the design work for the Union Station renovations took place in 2006, five years before the province announced that it wanted to electrify GO Transit rails to provide more frequent service to Ontario commuters.

That means that if Metrolinx proceeded with the current plans for the shed it would become off-limits to GO Trains as early as 2024, which is the targeted completion date for the electrification of all GO lines.

Speaking with CP24, Aikins noted that none of the work that has to be done so far “has to be undone.”

Rather, Metrolinx just has to come up with a plan to accommodate the new electric trains and their Catenary wires.

“The train shed was not initially built for electrification so we do have to put together a plan on how we can do that,” Aikins said, noting that the plan is about 75 per cent complete. “Are we going to raise the roof a couple inches? Lower the rail a couple of inches? There is a variety of things that we can do.”

Any modifications to the plans for the shed could be complicated by heritage laws. [...]
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As to the stairs, IIRC Metrolinx did announce having to redo them, acknowledging the problems they create now. I'll try and find reference later.

Here's Verster stating it:
That's what leads to the counter-intuitive but reasonable change that Verster said will need to happen at Union: the number of tracks will be reduced so that platforms can be widened. Right now, Union can handle only a few trains per hour on each track.
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urbantoronto.ca

Union Station: Big Changes Are Coming | UrbanToronto

Big changes are coming to Union Station. Metrolinx CEO Phil Verster says the station’s platforms will need to be substantially rebuilt to accommodate the influx of new passengers that will come with the GO RER program.
urbantoronto.ca urbantoronto.ca

In all fairness, a lot of what Verster stated in that otherwise excellent interview has proven to be vapour. Metrolinx have alluded to it in other reference. I'll post later when found.
 
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