Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[steveintoronto]

Presto treats them as two separate fare systems

"Separate systems" was the point I was making, and MD posted info to the contrary. Subsequently, I posted section from UPX FAQs which *seemed* to make MD's original point. But that's the crux of the problem: Ambiguous information. Duck doesn't even have a Presto card. Maybe he should buy one, perhaps not, that's not clear. So why should he then have to jump through hoops and pass IQ tests just to get him to Pearson the easiest and most understandable way possible without paying more than he should have to?

Assuming your point on "two separate fare systems", then the GO portion won't be any cheaper than paying cash, (something I've never been able to suss with the Presto Card, it's always been the same on my Presto itinerary on-line) but the Weston to Pearson section will be with a Presto card. As to why remains one of the many great mysteries of the UPX fare structure, ostensibly to nail Aliens more than they nailed Prestolites.

 

[Duck]

Thanks for understanding my situation, Steve - I don't see the benefit in purchasing a PRESTO card - I come to Toronto a couple of times a year, and always just buy a day-pass for the TTC so I can ride as much as I like. I don't see any value in taking a huge risk of signing up with PRESTO, getting a card, loading it up with a bunch of money and trying to figure it out on the leading edge of a multi-week, several thousand dollar trip to the other side of the world - when I know for absolutely certain I can figure out how to use a machine to buy a paper ticket on the platform for GO, and pre-buy my UPX ticket online and have it with me.

 

[APTA-2048]

"Separate systems" was the point I was making, and MD posted info to the contrary. Subsequently, I posted section from UPX FAQs which *seemed* to make MD's original point. But that's the crux of the problem: Ambiguous information. Duck doesn't even have a Presto card. Maybe he should buy one, perhaps not, that's not clear. So why should he then have to jump through hoops and pass IQ tests just to get him to Pearson the easiest and most understandable way possible without paying more than he should have to?

Assuming your point on "two separate fare systems", then the GO portion won't be any cheaper than paying cash, (something I've never been able to suss with the Presto Card, it's always been the same on my Presto itinerary on-line) but the Weston to Pearson section will be with a Presto card. As to why remains one of the many great mysteries of the UPX fare structure, ostensibly to nail Aliens more than they nailed Prestolites.

Presto is always be cheaper than cash for any system. The trip from Kitchener to Weston would be cheaper with Presto than cash. But I see your point.

Thanks for understanding my situation, Steve - I don't see the benefit in purchasing a PRESTO card - I come to Toronto a couple of times a year, and always just buy a day-pass for the TTC so I can ride as much as I like. I don't see any value in taking a huge risk of signing up with PRESTO, getting a card, loading it up with a bunch of money and trying to figure it out on the leading edge of a multi-week, several thousand dollar trip to the other side of the world - when I know for absolutely certain I can figure out how to use a machine to buy a paper ticket on the platform for GO, and pre-buy my UPX ticket online and have it with me.

That's cool. If it make you feel any better, you would have only save $2.36 with Presto anyway.

 

[steveintoronto]

That's cool. If it make you feel any better, you would have only saved $2.36 with Presto anyway.

And therein lies a very valuable point. Even having had a Presto card for years, there's still times where I 'just don't want to be bothered' remembering when to jump, cower, snivel, argue with a machine which may or may not have acknowledged the transaction and justify myself to someone with a uniform purely because they might have something up on me. I buy my journey printed on a ticket with my Presto Card so I don't have to address that process again. I relate to Duck, he's got much bigger things on his mind...which is exactly one of the advantages of the the TTC Day-Pass. It's not just the savings, it's the convenience and piece of mind that you can just hop on and off whenever (within the allotted time frame) and wherever you want, and to get back on, you just flash your pass. You've paid your day up-front.

And that makes people like Duck, myself and others wonder: "Same organization, why can't I just buy one ticket all the way through?". Perhaps Presto hasn't invented an algorithm for that yet? Maybe a committee is looking at it? Maybe not...

 

[nfitz]

Hi Nfitz, there's been some discussions on the past few pages about just how convoluted presto is in these situations. Have a look at those posts. Spending 30 seconds at the machine to print a ticket sounds like the best bet for me.

I saw those posts - it was a combination of people opining who don't ever seem to use Presto, and others clearly saying what to do that were ignored.

You need to tap in and out of Presto on both UPX and GO Trains. You must tap in and out on the same devices for each ride. Therefore you tap in and out of the Green GO Presto devices for the GO trip, and in and out of the silver UP pedestals for the Presto trip.

It's not difficult - but seem seem to choose to make it so.

Hopefully, they can ultimately ditch all the UP devices and replace them with GO devices, now that UP is part of GO Transit, and transfers to Pearson from Weston will be free - or even cheaper than Kitchener to Weston, if don't tap in and out of Weston.

 

[steveintoronto]

Here is the claim that started the sub-thread:

If you have a Presto card, you already can --
You can now tap Presto on a GO Presto reader, and bypass the UPX Presto reader, their fare inspecting process now allows/prefers regular GO taps for UPX rides.

Aspects of it have been verified by the UPX FAQ, other aspects haven't. I guess some people's "not difficult" is a lot more simple than others' complex. Someone doesn't have the story straight, and UPX aren't helping the matter, albeit their FAQ section was quoted a number of times.

 

[Evening]

What a confusing mess -- especially the FAQ. They should seriously consider getting rid of the separate branding for UPX and just fully integrating the systems together. They should've done that from the very beginning.

 

[Grimace]

It's not ideal but hardly a confusing mess. Given that the original implementation had substantially higher fares for UPX it was necessary to have the separate Presto machines. Now that they have reduced fares hopefully they can eliminate the UPX readers in time but cannot expect that they would turn that on a dime.

For regular users, it is easy to figure out. It is also easy for people taking the normal trip Pearson to Union or reverse. For more unconventional routes, it is a bit confusing. Welcome to every transit system in the world.

 

[Napoleon]

It's not ideal but hardly a confusing mess. Given that the original implementation had substantially higher fares for UPX it was necessary to have the separate Presto machines. Now that they have reduced fares hopefully they can eliminate the UPX readers in time but cannot expect that they would turn that on a dime.

I would argue that it's confusing for any non-regular GO rider. TTC riders are not used to tapping on/off. The FAQ for the fare readers is pretty hilarious at first blush. Now imagine a visitor to Toronto who has no idea of the history/background of UPX...they might be quite confused and annoyed. I hope they do indeed rapidly integrate the two fare readers so that it becomes both simple and seamless.

 

[mdrejhon]

Welcome to every transit system in the world.

Whee!

Ok, to be honest, as a computer programmer, I understand why things are temporarily byzantine right now.

But one or two years later, you probably can tap at whatever reader the heck you want (UPX or GO), even tap out of a different reader, to take whatever the heck Weston-corridor railroad vehicle you wish to take.

With the new pricing, even Pearson-Weston cost the same as Bloor-Union (same one-stop GO price on this corridor). So there doesn't seem to be a distinct airport premium beyond GO fare pricing, anymore. Though I could easily see them during whatever fare integration changes they do, they may put the airport into a different fare zone during future fare integration that flattens 416 GO station pricing in the future. Still, for the main Weston corridor itself, UPX and GO/RER/ST fares are now married in sync from now on, for better or for worse.

It appears pretty clear they now want to integrate UPX+GO fares, and just hamstrung by speed of infotech (IT) requirements. The IT programming can't turn on a dime, alas.

 

[mdrejhon]

As far as I know the GO and UPX system is the most basic possible.

You tap on. You tap off.

Unfortunately during the recent fare integration between GO+UPX (now identical fare) the fare programming is currently malfunctioning when you tap-on a GO reader and tap-out a UPX reader, or vice versa. It wasn't designed to do this, now they are fixing that "bug"

Also, another bug... GO loyalty now counts on UPX. But you must tap on a GO reader to ride UPX, in order to get unlimited 'free' UPX rides (now allowed) for your Weston corridor station pair after your 40th ride in a month. The UPX Presto (at moment) apparently does not support GO train loyalty. It does not matter what train you catch (GO or UPX) if you are a Bloor-Weston, Union-Bloor, or Weston-Union commuter, it is now considered identical for loyalty count.

Monopoly board game pun:
Do not pass GO, do not collect $200, disembark and walk past the UPX Presto machine, and tapout on the regular GO reader at Bloor or Weston. At least, it is currently this way for a moment if you wanted to rack up a Loyalty trip count! PROOF: Metrolinx.com tells you to use regular GO reader for UPX rides for Bloor/Weston commuters to/from Union.

Anecdotally, Metrolinx is working on it all supposedly, so it will eventually not matter which reader you tap in/out of for whichever trip paid you make, and whether or not you transfer. Loyalty will count on either, and you can tap in/tap on either, treating UPX and GO as being identical from a fare perspective and loyalty perspective, on presto reader infotech. Default trips will now work for UPX (yay Bloor and Weston residents) who will no longer need to tapout for either GO or UPX.

Also, I heard they want it so transferring between GO and UPX is becoming modified to become more like transferring between two GO trains -- from the intermediate tapout-tapin perspective.

Fixing the IT issues in two incompatible Presto readers isn't an overnight task...

Both UPX and GO are now identical in Weston Corridor fare treatment now, this is apparent Metrolinx intent, and they are scrambling their IT to fix inconsistencies.

 

[mdrejhon]

"Separate systems" was the point I was making, and MD posted info to the contrary.

I never said anything to the contrary.

"Separate systems" versus "Separate fares" are two totally different things.

The fares are now identical, but the systems are still separate, and they had glitches because of that. What do you do if you want GO loyalty points for example? They seem quickly fixing some of the easy fixes while other inconsistencies will take time.

Metrolinx even recommends you use regular GO Presto readers for residents commuting from Bloor/Weston.
The even encourage you to treat UPX and GO equally with no loyalty-discount distinction.
Current inconsistencies is because of IT programming.
This will reportedly be fixed.

Once you’ve tapped on, you can decide whether you want to take GO Transit or UP Express. You’ll continue to get your loyalty discount as long as your tap ON/OFF on the GO Transit PRESTO fare payment device.

From the horse's mouth.

Supposedly, IDENTICAL fare/loyalty/presto is the confirmed intent but the different systems take time to be fixed so it does not matter what the heck which to tap in/tap out of.

 

[Megaton327]

I would argue that it's confusing for any non-regular GO rider. TTC riders are not used to tapping on/off. The FAQ for the fare readers is pretty hilarious at first blush. Now imagine a visitor to Toronto who has no idea of the history/background of UPX...they might be quite confused and annoyed. I hope they do indeed rapidly integrate the two fare readers so that it becomes both simple and seamless.

By that logic GO is equally confusing since TTC riders are not used to tapping on/off--in that case, I'm not sure what good removing the UPX presto readers and solely having the GO ones would be, since according to you tapping on and off is confusing period.

I understand that some riders are not used to certain things, but there comes a point at which people need to be responsible adults and take a couple of minutes to try to figure things out, or very simply ask station staff for assistance. Tapping on/off is not some unreasonably overcomplicated process that requires a PhD.

I will echo the sentiments of others, however, and agree that the UPX Presto readers definitely need to be either reprogrammed to be 100% interoperable with tapping on the GO ones, or preferably removed and replaced entirely with the GO ones alone. Now that fares are integrated I don't doubt that this is the plan, it's just a question of how long until they do it.

 

[mdrejhon]

Not to mention different expiry times. Your UPX ride expires within 1 hour if tapping-in on a UPX Presto reader, and your UPX ride expires within 4 hours if tapping-in on a GO Presto reader.

Both Presto taps equally valid for a Bloor/Weston commuter, same price, different expiry!
...as long as you don't care about lack of loyalty points when tapping on the wrong machine...

Fare inspector caveat emptor for tardy boarders doing that last-minute coffee or telecommute in UPstairs Lounge!

(for now)

 

[drum118]

Has anyone told SMART or are they aware of UPX problems with their train set since they are getting the same ones??

SMART was the first to order them with UPX Order being added on later. Smart is getting 14 sets for their 42 mile line.

All platforms will support 3 cars with Bloor and Weston up to 4. All Platforms will have to be rebuilt 100% going to more than 3/4 cars.

March 19 Union Station