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[Woodbridge_Heights]

The comment was directed primarily at Darwinkgo and others like him who love to blame Miller for everything including cloudy weather.



Why would he? The air-rail link is a federal project, and the GO expansion on the line is a provincial project largely to serve residents who are not Torontonians while passing many Toronto neighbourhoods which don't have access to rapid transit and would be impacted by the construction. I fail to see how it would be in his best interest to get more involved in federal and provincial matters which don't deliver value to impacted residents even if he does support it.

1: The ARL link would improve the connection between the City (Miller) and the airport, shortening travel times and removing many automobiles off of the City's (there's Miller again) congested roads. Thus providing an economic benefit for the City (Yup Miller)
2: If Miller really wanted to improve GO service to residents in the City, then logically wouldn't he have pushed the TTC to expedite Presto implementation on the system, wouldn't he have petition GO to add more stations to key areas in the City and improve service to stations in the City? He had no problem working with TTC in the Transit City plan and petetioning the Provincial and Federal governments for funding. He seems to have been suspiciously quiet on these issues.
3: The GST (1% for cities), environment, Island Airport, Federal stance on big cities, etc are all upper level government issues that Miller has gotten himself involved in. So he's not beyond getting involved in them.

 

[EnviroTO]

1: The ARL link would improve the connection between the City (Miller) and the airport, shortening travel times and removing many automobiles off of the City's (there's Miller again) congested roads. Thus providing an economic benefit for the City (Yup Miller)

The ARL is a federal initiative and it doesn't serve Toronto residents very well. It serves downtown offices and tourists well and many of those downtown offices are filled with people who can't vote for the mayor because they come in on the GO everyday, and tourists can't vote. By making the ARL a Miller pet project the province and federal government could get away with saying they gave Miller exactly what he wanted and not have come forward with money for projects that serve more Toronto residents than out of town residents. Miller doesn't care about how congested the freeway is... he would rather the freeway be taken down. There is zero benefit for Miller to vocally support the ARL... it attaches his name to a project that isn't his and allows residents along the route to blame him for the construction. Every project has supporters and opposers and if a project is going to come to fruition without attaching your name to it there is no point putting yourself out there as a target to those who oppose the project.

2: If Miller really wanted to improve GO service to residents in the City, then logically wouldn't he have pushed the TTC to expedite Presto implementation on the system, wouldn't he have petition GO to add more stations to key areas in the City and improve service to stations in the City? He had no problem working with TTC in the Transit City plan and petetioning the Provincial and Federal governments for funding. He seems to have been suspiciously quiet on these issues.

Presto is a provincial initiative. The TTC will not be able to set the rules for Presto, find revenue opportunities from Presto, or control Presto in any way. If Miller gets all excited about the project then the city is stuck with the bill. By not getting excited about it the province rolls it out an there is a gaping hole in the project in Toronto which the province will likely come forward with money to fill.

3: The GST (1% for cities), environment, Island Airport, Federal stance on big cities, etc are all upper level government issues that Miller has gotten himself involved in. So he's not beyond getting involved in them.

Those initiatives gave the city money and control. The GST was to give the city money, he was involved in the environment only where the city has jurisdiction (he didn't impose new emission standards), he was involved in the airport because the airport is governed by a tri-partite agreement and the city had some control, involvement in the federal stance on big city was to get money. No matter how involved Miller gets in Presto or the ARL the city coffers will not receive money from the province or federal government for it nor will the city have any say on how it is run. Why bother getting involved in something you have zero control over when there is a whole city to manage with things you are directly responsible for. His involvement wouldn't have changed anything. The federal government had already awarded the project and defined its scope.

 

[RedRocket191]

Don't forget - the ARL project is bundled (like it or not) with GO improvements on the Georgetown corridor and will better the Milton, Bradford and Bolton corridors. They do serve Toronto, and that is something to support.

 

[TOareaFan]

Don't forget - the ARL project is bundled (like it or not) with GO improvements on the Georgetown corridor and will better the Milton, Bradford and Bolton corridors. They do serve Toronto, and that is something to support.

If I were mayor of Toronto (don't worry it'll never happen) I would also feel compelled to take a position on this line. Even if it were just to maintain the right to comment on its construction and routing and stops and such. More importantly though, if you accept that being a competitve city in the world to attract businesses and head offices downtown means, these days, that you have a direct rail link to your airport then this line should be seen as a relatively important business development tool for the downtown. Unless of course you are gonna rely on a downtown airport for that competitive edge....oops.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

That's the flaw in not having the mayor of Toronto voice an opinion on the proposal because "It doesn't directly affect Torontonians", and the shortsightedness of the NIMBY's who demand that every service type stop in their neighbourhood. Quite frankly having a direct rail link makes the city more competitive in the global market, while businesspeople and tourists might not have votes in the elections they vote with their wallets when the choose to do/take up business or travel to Toronto; and this does affect Toronto and not just the communities that line the corridor but the entire city benefits economically when people choose to come here.

To say that had Miller supported the ARL, upper level governments would only have funded it and not, for example, the Transit City plan is simply ludicrous. It's just like the argument that we got funding for TC but had the city proposed subways that they wouldn't have got funding, or that they were only given $x millions of dollars. The fact of the matter is that the Provincial and Federal governments have pretty much funded (or promised to fund, we'll see) everything that the City has proposed.

Presto is a provincial initiative. The TTC will not be able to set the rules for Presto, find revenue opportunities from Presto, or control Presto in any way. If Miller gets all excited about the project then the city is stuck with the bill. By not getting excited about it the province rolls it out an there is a gaping hole in the project in Toronto which the province will likely come forward with money to fill.

Ahhh so now the city wants everything for nothing. Quite the strategic move, I must say. Especially when you are trying to build relationships with the Province/Metrolinx

Everything seems to be about control, but there are things the the city doesn't control that brings it economic benefit. The city doesn't control VIA, yet it brings people into the city everyday, people who spend money and bring economic benefit. The city doesnt' control the local sports teams/theatres/concert halls/etc, yet these places bring people into the city and give an economic benefit. The city doesn't control the banks, BMO/RBC/TD or any of the other firms that are in the CBD and yet these firms locate here and bring an economic benefit (workers, property taxes, etc, etc, etc). Need I go on? It's not always about being able to control things yourself in order to get behind something, if it benefits your city in some way you should be behind it in one way or another.

 

[ahmedyusali]

Rail link on track, Pan Am officials say
By JONATHAN JENKINS, Toronto Sun



The Union-Pearson rail link will be finished in time for the Pan American Games in 2015, organizers said Thursday.

“We’ve had good meetings with the ministry of transport as well as Metrolinx and we’re quite confident that will be ready in time,” Games CEO Ian Troop said during a conference call with reporters.

“We feel good that that will be an important infrastructural piece that will be triggered by the Pan American Games.”

The promise of a rail line connecting Union Station and Pearson International Airport was first made in 2002, but little tangible progress has been made.

Just last week, Mayor David Miller blamed squabbling between the province and the federal government for stalling the plan and said he was concerned the train may not be running in time for the Games, which will attract about 10,000 athletes and officials, and an estimated 250,000 tourists.

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2010/03/18/13281346.html

 

[EnviroTO]

That's the flaw in not having the mayor of Toronto voice an opinion on the proposal because "It doesn't directly affect Torontonians"...

I'm not saying it doesn't affect Torontonians, I'm saying it doesn't provide anywhere near a universal benefit to the citizens, and that Miller's support would provide no benefit. What exactly do you think would have happened differently if Miller publicly supported the ARL? Should he have an opinion on military spending too? Why hasn't Miller taken a stance on healthcare... far more people use healthcare than will ever take the ARL.

To say that had Miller supported the ARL, upper level governments would only have funded it and not, for example, the Transit City plan is simply ludicrous.

No it isn't ludicrous. When Miller tried to get funding for the city streetcars he heard that he was asking for too much and the federal government didn't come to the table and the province almost didn't as well. Funding is not a bottomless pit and once the province or federal government can say they have given you something they can focus on other projects. Miller does want funding for Don Mills too... where is the money? Transit City only got funding because he made it a priority above all others.

Ahhh so now the city wants everything for nothing. Quite the strategic move, I must say. Especially when you are trying to build relationships with the Province/Metrolinx

Everything seems to be about control, but there are things the the city doesn't control that brings it economic benefit. The city doesn't control VIA, yet it brings people into the city everyday, people who spend money and bring economic benefit. The city doesnt' control the local sports teams/theatres/concert halls/etc, yet these places bring people into the city and give an economic benefit. The city doesn't control the banks, BMO/RBC/TD or any of the other firms that are in the CBD and yet these firms locate here and bring an economic benefit (workers, property taxes, etc, etc, etc). Need I go on? It's not always about being able to control things yourself in order to get behind something, if it benefits your city in some way you should be behind it in one way or another.

The benefit doesn't matter when you are in no position to pay for it. Miller can say he wants high speed rail to Montreal all he wants but who cares? It isn't his jurisdiction, and he has no money for it. Of course the city tries to get everything for nothing... they had provincial costs downloaded to them in the Harris government that have never been uploaded. They can't make ends meet.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I'm not saying it doesn't affect Torontonians, I'm saying it doesn't provide anywhere near a universal benefit to the citizens, and that Miller's support would provide no benefit. What exactly do you think would have happened differently if Miller publicly supported the ARL? Should he have an opinion on military spending too? Why hasn't Miller taken a stance on healthcare... far more people use healthcare than will ever take the ARL.

I did show you how it would benefit Toronto, however it would be an indirect benefit. Improved business/tourist accessibility between the airport and downtown will provide an economice benefit to the city. Would Miller's viewpoint have changed the outcome on the ARL? Not likely, but at least he would have taken a stand.

No it isn't ludicrous. When Miller tried to get funding for the city streetcars he heard that he was asking for too much and the federal government didn't come to the table and the province almost didn't as well. Funding is not a bottomless pit and once the province or federal government can say they have given you something they can focus on other projects. Miller does want funding for Don Mills too... where is the money? Transit City only got funding because he made it a priority above all others.

I don't remember that sequence of events so I can't really comment. However it does seem odd that the response to being turned down for funding for Streetcars is to come back with a more expensive LRT network plan.

You're right funding from upper governments is not a bottomless pit. However many many TC advocates like to make it seem like there was a set funding amount for a transit plan and that TC was the only option. That's false.

The benefit doesn't matter when you are in no position to pay for it. Miller can say he wants high speed rail to Montreal all he wants but who cares? It isn't his jurisdiction, and he has no money for it. Of course the city tries to get everything for nothing... they had provincial costs downloaded to them in the Harris government that have never been uploaded. They can't make ends meet.

So if VIA were to cut service to Toronto, the city should remain quiet? The point is that there are things beyond the city's control that still bring it economic benefits and the city should support those things. Downloading has nothing to do with it, though I do agree that the downloading was a killer to the city.

Miller/ttc could easily have said "we support Presto and integrated fares across the GTA but we do not have the funding to implement it". Instead they've steadfastly stood against the plan.

 

[EnviroTO]

I did show you how it would benefit Toronto, however it would be an indirect benefit. Improved business/tourist accessibility between the airport and downtown will provide an economice benefit to the city. Would Miller's viewpoint have changed the outcome on the ARL? Not likely, but at least he would have taken a stand.

So you agree that his taking a stand would provide no change. All it would allow is people to blame Miller for construction noise he had no part of, for a deal with a company with exclusive rights to serve the airport that Miller had no part of, and to blame Miller for a lack of electrification for a project he had no part of. That would be dumb politics. People already blame Miller for things that happened in council before he was even mayor.

You're right funding from upper governments is not a bottomless pit. However many many TC advocates like to make it seem like there was a set funding amount for a transit plan and that TC was the only option. That's false.

There was no set project and no set funding. The way it works is that the squeakiest wheel gets the oil and once the upper level of governments feel they have appeased the city and its constituents sufficiently and have a project they can point at and say "see, we did that so we care" then the funding stops until the political capital of that funding has gone away.

So if VIA were to cut service to Toronto, the city should remain quiet? The point is that there are things beyond the city's control that still bring it economic benefits and the city should support those things. Downloading has nothing to do with it, though I do agree that the downloading was a killer to the city.

He should only be vocal in his support if he thinks he can rally others and can change their mind. If this was Greece and there really was no money for VIA then I don't think he should be vocal in his support because doing so would be pointless. There is no point being vocal about something that will not change.

Miller/ttc could easily have said "we support Presto and integrated fares across the GTA but we do not have the funding to implement it". Instead they've steadfastly stood against the plan.

They have not steadfastly stood against the plan. The TTC was examining the possibility of a combo fare / purchasing card before Presto even existed and had Dexit pitch an idea on the subject but they wanted something better. You will not see any TTC document state anything other than support of a fare card but an unwillingness to be shouldered with the costs. This is a city which gets all its garbage cans, benches, and shelters through advertisers for free. They don't want to spend money on something that could have been had for free with the right commercial partner. Imagine the value to Mastercard for example to have Mastercard tap-n-go Transit Payment Cards where in addition regular Mastercards work but Visa and Amex cards don't work. Or perhaps the value of having a network of retailers which are part of a loyalty program leading to free transit. The TTC can't find any opportunity like this any more because the province pre-empted them making fare box changes simply an expense.

 

[nfitz]

Miller/ttc could easily have said "we support Presto and integrated fares across the GTA but we do not have the funding to implement it". Instead they've steadfastly stood against the plan.

Wait - isn't that exactly what TTC did on November 17, 2009?

Commissioners endorsed the TTC’s participation in the provincially lead, GTA-wide PRESTO Smartcard System (for fare collection) conditional upon acceptable operating and financial agreements being established between the TTC/City of Toronto and the province, Metrolinx and the federal government, which address the TTC’s business needs.

 

[GregWTravels]

Steve Munro has a entry up about the March 22 meeting held by the Toronto Public Health Department regarding the issue of clean trains in the Weston corridor.

Gary McNeil ... did say that GO is inter regional as is not interested in providing service within the 416, but if the TTC wants to build a rapid transit line up the corridor they could tunnel under the rail right of way. GO is unwilling to consider anything that is not mainline railway compatible even if they own the entire corridor and have enough tracks to keep regular freight and passenger equipment off them.

SNC Lavalin is looking at a mainline version of the Ottawa Talent cars instead of recycled Budd Cars

 

[GregWTravels]

Regarding the Electrification study, in a blog entry by Steve Munro has a about the March 22 meeting held by the Toronto Public Health Department regarding the issue of clean trains in the Weston corridor, it is stated that Gary McNeil said the electrification study should be done by December. He also said that GO and MPI will have a tier 4 version of the MP40 Locomotive ready in about a year for testing.

 

[DavidH]

Steve Munro has a entry up about the March 22 meeting held by the Toronto Public Health Department regarding the issue of clean trains in the Weston corridor.

Gary McNeil ... did say that GO is inter regional as is not interested in providing service within the 416, but if the TTC wants to build a rapid transit line up the corridor they could tunnel under the rail right of way. GO is unwilling to consider anything that is not mainline railway compatible even if they own the entire corridor and have enough tracks to keep regular freight and passenger equipment off them.

SNC Lavalin is looking at a mainline version of the Ottawa Talent cars instead of recycled Budd Cars

Just to be clear, these words are from someone who attended the meeting and reported to Steve. They are NOT Steve's words.

 

[Mapleson]

For those of you arguing about the merits of dual-fuel vs electric only trains, the 'cost' is insignificant next to the sums required for the infrastructure and corridor widening. For those of you that don't know, a typical rail RoW is 66 feet. Electrified corridors will require a minimum of 80 feet to provide central spacing between GO and CN/CP lines to allow for maintainance. This means taking 7 feet plus embankment requirements from property through Toronto. This is roughly 120 acres (100km of network by 14ft) at a minimum of $1,000,000 per acre. Next construction of an electrified system would be in the order of magnitude of $1,500 million (See Caltrain expense of $15m per km in non-urban setting). Add these with the cost of trains and you are looking at a minimum of $3,000 million.

Gasoline releases CO2. Deisal releases NOX. For locomotives, the EPA Tiers began with Tier 0 based in 2000 technology with 9.5 PPM NOx and 0.6 particulate matter emmsions. This represented a 4:1 fuel economy over on-highway transport. Tier 2 Trains (came into force in 2005) reduced emissions by 60% and particulate matter by 50%. Tier 4 Trains do not exist, but Gary mcNeil and Metrolinx have agreed to convert all GO Trains to this technology as it is available. They are currently in development for production in 2015 and will represent a 86% reduction in NOx (1.3 PPM) and 95% reduction in particulate matter (0.03 PPM). Meanwhile, trucks are allowed to produce 3.125 grams NOx per brake horsepower-hour at 30% power over 30 seconds.

In the real world, where a balance must be sought between all modes of transportation, couldn't $3 billion be used for a greater improvement in air quality by expanding rail for commericial/industrial use and transit for residential use? Why not invest $1 billion in development of a zero-emmision deisal engine, $2 billion on expanding rail capacity and remove four times the trucks? The choice is between overall lower emissions or the choice of a small portion of zero point-emissions and lower overall improvement in air quality. Rather than the Clean Train Student Coalition, it should focus to the Clean Air Coalition or Clean Transport Student Coalition.

 

[kettal]

For those of you arguing about the merits of dual-fuel vs electric only trains, the 'cost' is insignificant next to the sums required for the infrastructure and corridor widening. For those of you that don't know, a typical rail RoW is 66 feet. Electrified corridors will require a minimum of 80 feet to provide central spacing between GO and CN/CP lines to allow for maintainance. This means taking 7 feet plus embankment requirements from property through Toronto. This is roughly 120 acres (100km of network by 14ft) at a minimum of $1,000,000 per acre. Next construction of an electrified system would be in the order of magnitude of $1,500 million (See Caltrain expense of $15m per km in non-urban setting). Add these with the cost of trains and you are looking at a minimum of $3,000 million.

Are you saying that track separation is not being taken into account with the current line rebuild? That would mean GO was lying when they said the new tracks are capable of being electrified in the future.

Further, EMU trainsets are often cheaper than locomotive trainsets, so there should be a cost savings on train purchase compared to buying more locomotives. Also, only 50 km of the line should be electrified, as there won't be frequent all-day service further than Brampton. Long-haul journeys (of which there are only a few each day) can continue to use diesel, and run express through the urban areas.

GO's own studies have claimed that electrification pays for itself within 10 years of operational savings. (from a report on Lakeshore electrification.)

In light of this, maybe you should reconsider your $3 billion number?

Gasoline releases CO2. Deisal releases NOX. For locomotives, the EPA Tiers began with Tier 0 based in 2000 technology with 9.5 PPM NOx and 0.6 particulate matter emmsions. This represented a 4:1 fuel economy over on-highway transport. Tier 2 Trains (came into force in 2005) reduced emissions by 60% and particulate matter by 50%. Tier 4 Trains do not exist, but Gary mcNeil and Metrolinx have agreed to convert all GO Trains to this technology as it is available. They are currently in development for production in 2015 and will represent a 86% reduction in NOx (1.3 PPM) and 95% reduction in particulate matter (0.03 PPM). Meanwhile, trucks are allowed to produce 3.125 grams NOx per brake horsepower-hour at 30% power over 30 seconds.

The Locomotives create a lot of vibration and noise pollution, anybody who has used a GO train will tell you this. They're also very slow at accelerating compared to electric multiple unit trains.