Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[nfitz]

What about the 1 or 2 (tee hee) who are meeting at FCP/TD/Brookfield/Scotia...that can easily walk to Union in a couple of minutes, check in (to the train and plane) and scoot to the airport express in comfort (moreso than an LRT/Subway) with, likely, wifi access and a cup o java in hand.!/QUOTE]I thought they all flew Porter

Look, we will never know until it happens.

What about transport demand models? They should give a ballpark indication of what will happen. Sure it will attract some - but enough to avoid the need for a subsidy?

...but I have faith that most of the business meetings in this city are not ocurring at Queens Park or College Park....they might be taking place in the towers located in the financial district....all of which have a climate controlled easy walk connection to Union station!

That seems a pretty old model. I'd think many meetings ARE occurring in College Park, and particularly at UT. Not to mention York University (I've certainly been at meetings in that area, where people cab it back to Pearson). And at Yonge/Sheppard, Yonge/Eglinton, and in all the businesses in 905.

But again, we should be looking at the studies. There should be origin/destination data available if we are looking at dropping $hundreds of millions of public money on this.

 

[DavidH]

But again, we should be looking at the studies. There should be origin/destination data available if we are looking at dropping $hundreds of millions of public money on this.

Things may change in time, but right now most of those flying into the city for meetings at taking limos to their destinations or renting a car. When you can expense a limo (and it's NOT an executive perk - even at my very small employer it's common practice), you're going to take the fastest route you can.

I'm not saying that there will no business travel use case for these routes, but I suspect that the vast majority be local travelers or airport workers.

Granted, I have taken SEPTA from Philly for meetings in Trenton, NJ, because it's easier than renting a car.

 

[nfitz]

Things may change in time, but right now most of those flying into the city for meetings at taking limos to their destinations or renting a car. When you can expense a limo (and it's NOT an executive perk - even at my very small employer it's common practice), you're going to take the fastest route you can.

Then such travellers are still going to continue to use limos much of the time ... except in rush-hour. A 22-minute travel time, with a 20-minute frequency, is an average of 32-minutes ... not including the 5-10 minutes to get to Union - compared to the cab that is sitting at your building, that will get you there in 20 minutes.

 

[threnody]

Many claim that Blue 22 is not overpriced because a similar service is very successful in London. The question is, how is the situation different in London, and does that mean that this model will not necessarily be equally successful in Toronto?

How easy is it to get a cab to the airport in London, and how long does it take compared to taking Heathrow Express? What's the difference in cost? Is the congestion in London significantly worse than in Toronto?

I don't know the answers to these questions, but if someone else does it will certainly be easier to judge whether Blue 22 is priced appropriately.

 

[DavidH]

Then such travellers are still going to continue to use limos much of the time ... except in rush-hour. A 22-minute travel time, with a 20-minute frequency, is an average of 32-minutes ... not including the 5-10 minutes to get to Union - compared to the cab that is sitting at your building, that will get you there in 20 minutes.

My point is not that we can't get these travelers - I agree that rush hour is a definite candidate - but we need to recognize that business travelers are the most time-sensitive riders (I can't speak for others, but when on site, it seems like my team is often scrambling to get to the airport at the last possible minute because meetings inevitably run long) and least cost-concerned (when traveling on project, travel costs are budgeted for and being paid by the customer). These aren't universally true statements, of course, but we need to be realistic about our ability to attract these riders. We can certainly get some, but there are huge numbers that are out of reach.

Anyway, I'm not particularly concerned about Blue22 pricing. They will price themselves at what they think the market can bear and what will maximize their rate of return. If it's too high, I'm sure they will notice it quickly and will lower it. If it's not viable at all, they will shut it down and we can then - finally! - talk about true GO service to the airport.

 

[TOareaFan]

Time will tell.

I am, obviously, only one businessman/business traveller but what I look for in my journey from or too an aiport is the best combination of speed and certainty.

Currently, cabs in toronto do not beat the proposed rail service on either.

The trip from my office to Pearson can take anywhere from 30 minutes (not sure who suggested 20 minutes in non-rush but I can assure you it has never happened for me.....geez from the corner of King and University it takes anywhere from 7 - 10 minutes (or more) to get on the Gardiner.....so how a cab would get from there to the airport in 10 - 13 minutes I do not know) to 90 minutes....the reality is that I usually budget 50.

Having budgeted 50 minutes...there are two equally frustrating things that can happen.....I can get to the aiport in 30 minutes and realize that the last meeting could have continued for 20 more minutes......or I could get to the airport in 90 minutes and realize I have just spent that last 60 minutes of a 30 minute cab ride rearranging flights.

What a service like Blue 22 offers is time certainty.....I know that if I leave my office and walk to Union I will be in the airport 30 minutes later (or whatever time it is).....similarly, business people coming into town will know that if their flight lands at 8 they can/will be at Union by 8:30...and they can schedule the day accordingly......there isn't a business traveller anywhere who has not experienced that awful feeling of being stuck on some city's aiport freeway, not moving looking at other people not moving and calling a client/partner/contact and saying...."I really can't say for sure what time I will be there....hopefully you will still have time to see me....I have flown in for this you know?"

There is a myth that the only consideration amongst the suit and tie-bay street-business traveller is the cost and tax deductability of a trip from/to the airport. Time management and certainty is a big factor....if there is an easy, comfortable, reliable and predictable service it will get its share of the business traveller.

I have long said that if GO even had 30 minute service on Georgetown to Malton and an easy bus/shuttle from there into the terminal it would win some business/downtown customers as the time risk in that journey is, typically done by the time you get to the 427/401....and rail bypasses that.

 

[nfitz]

The trip from my office to Pearson can take anywhere from 30 minutes (not sure who suggested 20 minutes in non-rush .

Umm, me. Well Google Maps, but it matches my experiences. I frequently drive from the Danforth/Woodbine area to Halton Region via the Gardiner, 427, and 401 during morning rush-hour. If I leave before 7:30 AM or after 9:00 I typically pass Pearson at the 25 to 30 minute mark; but I'm 10 minutes to just get onto the Gardiner (east of Carlaw). But certainly not always - one decent problem, and it's suddenly 60 minutes. It also matches my experiences as I used to from time-to-time give rides to someone from UT to Pearson, invariably down Spadina ... and 25 to 30 minutes from near Bloor/Spadina was typical. I'm surprised it would take 30 minutes from King and University outside of rush-hour ... but I confess that I very seldom take a car down right into core.

the reality is that I usually budget 50. ... What a service like Blue 22 offers is time certainty.....

And that's a very good point. You can't rely on it being 30. You have to hedge it. And that is a benefit of the train, is suddenly you have reliability (hopefully!). Though with a 5 to 10-minute walk and 22-minute travel time, suddenly 30-minutes become 50 minutes if you miss your train. So you still have to give yourself 50-minutes - but there is peace of mind.

business travelers are the ... least cost-concerned (when traveling on project, travel costs are budgeted for and being paid by the customer).

Or perhaps the most-cost concerned. The business traveller being paid by the client is also dealing with his own chargeable hours. So if he cuts 30 minutes of travel time, he'll save the client $50 even if he's only charging out at $100 an hour - compared to that, an extra $30 for a cab to save 20 minutes is cheaper.

 

[kEiThZ]

^ TOareaFan hit the nail on the head. It's the variability of the airport shuttles and taxis that makes an airport rail link so preferable.

As to the comparison to London, taxis are insanely expensive. From Paddington station where the Heathrow Express terminates to Trafalgar Square is about 16 pounds. I can't even imagine what the fare would be from Paddington to Heathrow. It would certainly be significantly higher than the GBP 16.50 that Heathrow Express charges. As per the site below, the lowest one would pay would be 40 pounds. I am fairly sure that's an absolute best case scenario (Heathrow to the edge of the city centre outside of peak hours).

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/taxisandminicabs/taxis/1140.aspx

Similarly, even a 30 dollar charge on Blue 22 would be a bargain compared to Toronto's taxi rates which are at least 40 bucks or higher.

In my opinion, the people who should be worried about Blue 22 are the airport limo drivers who charge 50 bucks for a trip to the core.

 

[DavidH]

Or perhaps the most-cost concerned. The business traveller being paid by the client is also dealing with his own chargeable hours. So if he cuts 30 minutes of travel time, he'll save the client $50 even if he's only charging out at $100 an hour - compared to that, an extra $30 for a cab to save 20 minutes is cheaper.

Agreed; time is the issue in both cases, except perhaps at rush hour when time certainty may become more important.

 

[TOareaFan]

^ TOareaFan hit the nail on the head. It's the variability of the airport shuttles and taxis that makes an airport rail link so preferable.

As to the comparison to London, taxis are insanely expensive. From Paddington station where the Heathrow Express terminates to Trafalgar Square is about 16 pounds. I can't even imagine what the fare would be from Paddington to Heathrow. It would certainly be significantly higher than the GBP 16.50 that Heathrow Express charges. As per the site below, the lowest one would pay would be 40 pounds. I am fairly sure that's an absolute best case scenario (Heathrow to the edge of the city centre outside of peak hours).

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/gettingaround/taxisandminicabs/taxis/1140.aspx

Similarly, even a 30 dollar charge on Blue 22 would be a bargain compared to Toronto's taxi rates which are at least 40 bucks or higher.

In my opinion, the people who should be worried about Blue 22 are the airport limo drivers who charge 50 bucks for a trip to the core.

I was doing Heathrow to London fairly regularly in the late 90's (forget the exact years but it was just before the express rail opened because I remember thinking how bad my timing was!)....anyway....to the hotel I stayed at from Heathrow was, regularly, 60 quid (including tip).....I would suspect it has gone up now

 

[Ansem]

Time will tell.

I am, obviously, only one businessman/business traveller but what I look for in my journey from or too an aiport is the best combination of speed and certainty.

Currently, cabs in toronto do not beat the proposed rail service on either.

The trip from my office to Pearson can take anywhere from 30 minutes (not sure who suggested 20 minutes in non-rush but I can assure you it has never happened for me.....geez from the corner of King and University it takes anywhere from 7 - 10 minutes (or more) to get on the Gardiner.....so how a cab would get from there to the airport in 10 - 13 minutes I do not know) to 90 minutes....the reality is that I usually budget 50.

Having budgeted 50 minutes...there are two equally frustrating things that can happen.....I can get to the aiport in 30 minutes and realize that the last meeting could have continued for 20 more minutes......or I could get to the airport in 90 minutes and realize I have just spent that last 60 minutes of a 30 minute cab ride rearranging flights.

What a service like Blue 22 offers is time certainty.....I know that if I leave my office and walk to Union I will be in the airport 30 minutes later (or whatever time it is).....similarly, business people coming into town will know that if their flight lands at 8 they can/will be at Union by 8:30...and they can schedule the day accordingly......there isn't a business traveller anywhere who has not experienced that awful feeling of being stuck on some city's aiport freeway, not moving looking at other people not moving and calling a client/partner/contact and saying...."I really can't say for sure what time I will be there....hopefully you will still have time to see me....I have flown in for this you know?"

There is a myth that the only consideration amongst the suit and tie-bay street-business traveller is the cost and tax deductability of a trip from/to the airport. Time management and certainty is a big factor....if there is an easy, comfortable, reliable and predictable service it will get its share of the business traveller.

I have long said that if GO even had 30 minute service on Georgetown to Malton and an easy bus/shuttle from there into the terminal it would win some business/downtown customers as the time risk in that journey is, typically done by the time you get to the 427/401....and rail bypasses that.

might as well take the Crosstown with your Metropass...

I wonder if they even consider that the majority of citizens living North of Eglinton or even a few km south of Eglinton will definately take the Crosstown...

I always saw Blue 22 as a service for tourist and businessman. Most of us will use the crosstown. (LRT>subway/bus transfer)

With the same 50 min you get to Pearson and the LRT is supposed to be as frequent as a subway. It would have cost you 0$ (If you have your Metropass)

So I think they should at least consider the Mark II or better...subway on Eglinton.

Imagine...
Christmas time, everybody going to the airport with their luggage on the LRT...

 

[DavidH]

I always saw Blue 22 as a service for tourist and businessman. Most of us will use the crosstown. (LRT>subway/bus transfer)

I suspect that there may be some usage from Durham residents as well, given that limos to Durham from the airport run $100 and even the Classique (company name) shared vans run $50. For single travelers, it will be a viable option to take GO to Union and Blue22 from there. Even at $30, there's a significant savings that may be worth the overall slower trip for some.

 

[TOareaFan]

I always saw Blue 22 as a service for tourist and businessman.

I think the proponents saw it that way too....that is why they did not have any stops beyond Bloor Station (even that was questionable but represented a link/transfer from the B-D subway line)......and why it seems so so silly for citizens groups to wrangle out a stop at Weston.

It is priced to be an alternative for people begining or ending their trip in downtown.......other than people on here hoping it was so, I don't think I have ever heard it described as a public transit route to the airport (rapid transit yes, public transit no).

 

[threnody]

I suspect that there may be some usage from Durham residents as well, given that limos to Durham from the airport run $100 and even the Classique (company name) shared vans run $50. For single travelers, it will be a viable option to take GO to Union and Blue22 from there. Even at $30, there's a significant savings that may be worth the overall slower trip for some.

I wonder if it'd eventually be worthwhile to run some trips further east on Lakeshore. Perhaps outside of rush hour, when there is spare capacity in the corridor.

 

[EnviroTO]

Real competition

What will really test the whole theory that airport service need go directly to the terminal is an extension of the Finch LRT to the airport via the Malton GO. This would allow people to take quick GO rail service to Malton and transfer to LRT for a few blocks. The Eglinton LRT would be much slower than the Malton GO + Finch LRT route but significantly faster than taking the subway to the 192 Airport Rocket.

I have always believed that the two options that make sense are:
1. A monorail going Malton GO - T3 - T1 - Renforth Gateway, or
2. A station between T1 and T3 with walkways to the terminals where GO and VIA trains run through the airport.

That said, if a Finch LRT line run into the airport and there is frequent GO service on the Georgetown line with a connection to the LRT at or near Malton GO as well as an Eglinton LRT to the airport I can't see any problem with Blue22 existing if it can make a go of things. I have more issue with their not being a reasonable public transit option than I do with the existence of private and slightly over priced option. I can't imagine a family of four shelling out $176 for a round trip but the public transit option such as a $9 family day pass on weekends or 70 cent child fares are incredibly reasonable (as low as $18 round trip for a family). But families obviously aren't the target market.