smallspy
Senior Member
Of course, the A-Line is almost twice as long, and has twice as many stations....but why let the facts get in the way of a good story, right?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited
Of course, the A-Line is almost twice as long, and has twice as many stations....but why let the facts get in the way of a good story, right?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Denver got 1 billion dollars from the feds to make their system happen, and the airport line was integral to the plan rather than tacked on. UPX was done in the hope it could kept separate from GO and flogged off to the private sector at the earliest opportunity (minus a bunch of sunk costs), when having the private sector build the line in the first place fell through.
steveintoronto
Superstar
Not to overlook the PanAm imbroglio. If it wasn't for PanAm, it would *possibly/probably* now be electric.
dowlingm
Senior Member
Rotem USA is not having a good time of it - the Silverliner equalizer beam recall, the awful time MBTA have had getting their bilevels serviceable, and Metrolink having to stick BNSF locomotives in front of their cab cars.
Rotem look set to get a 41 DMU add-on order from the Irish railway to add to the 234 they have, but they will ship from Korea, not Philly.
dowlingm
Senior Member
More possible than probable in my view, like how anything is *possible* to a defence attorney examining a witness.
cplchanb
Senior Member
How would it have been electric faster?
dowlingm
Senior Member
Well, without the deadline it would have been harder to resist the political pressure for day one electrification. However, I think the likely outcome of that is that UPX simply would not have been built as yet, not least given the issues with getting the wire into Union.
This delay might have put the "JFK-Airtrain" option of Woodbine VIA/GO Station linked to Pearson by peoplemover back on the table, and the Georgetown South alignment being operated as a more conventional slow-fast-fast-slow track layout and more services to/from Bramalea.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Yes, there is a good chance that Day 1 it would have been electrified....but, agree, we would probably still be waiting for Day 1 to arrive.
Since (thankfully in my mind) Woodbine did not make the cut in the new station derby.....can we move to the idea that Malton is the logical station to link to Pearson?
dowlingm
Senior Member
Agreed. Two issues: getting local buses to be convenient to Malton GO instead of several hundred meters away, and how can the ability of buses/transit to access YYZ without looping round and round and round be improved?Since (thankfully in my mind) Woodbine did not make the cut in the new station derby.....can we move to the idea that Malton is the logical station to link to Pearson?
smallspy
Senior Member
Exceedingly unlikely. They'd already ruled out extending the people mover in 2002 - what makes you think that a delay in the opening of the service by a couple of months to perhaps a year would make is a more feasible option?
Dan
Toronto, Ont.
TOareaFan
Superstar
I think the obvious place to make local buses more convenient is on the International Centre side of the tracks...build bus bays there can use Hull and airport road as a loop......at the airport...move all the buses to the Viscount end of the link train....no more looping around the airport.
steveintoronto
Superstar
The relative comparison of time line wasn't made clear. Let's flip this over, as there's been some good answers and fodder for discussion from others:
UPX, in the present manifestation, was the product of haste, that haste being the Pan Am games. There's a divergence of opinion on what may have happened, but doubtless, what did happen would not have been the first choice of most anyone on this board. Even SMART, the instigator for the present UPX fleet, and the only other user (it was looked at by Sound and IIRC some others and dropped like a hot, expensive rotten potato)(with an untried Cummins engine jacked into the originating Japanese version) is even second guessing their own choice, not to mention the county and adjacent jurisdictions. The enduring complicating factor for both SMART and UPX was having to meet FRA heavy rail regs, mimicked by TC (even as the Americans have moved on).
Queen's Park forced the acquisition of an expensive and inflexible choice that we're now saddled with. Had that false time imperative not been imposed, ostensibly cooler headed analysts at Metrolinx would have prevailed, and invested in the future, not the past. It was a political decision, not a pragmatic engineering one.
The *likelihood* is that prevailing analsts/engineers at Metrolinx would have stated "Let's not waste this opportunity to get this right, and that's electric traction"...but QP had very different ideas. It would have taken a couple more years, if ever, admittedly, but it would not have resulted in what we now have.
Even the DMU option but with regulatory waivers would have allowed *many* competing bids, almost all off-the-shelf tried and trued save for specific signalling and control features. And warehouse ready available parts. What a concept...
Everyone loves a circus...especially clowns.
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APTA-2048
Senior Member
Ideally Kitchener line RER should have been rolled out with UPX. But this is coming over the next 10 years, begining with improved off-peak service next year. So I don't get this obsession with "converting" UPX to an RER line. The two services can co-exist.
crs1026
Superstar
Actually, we can thank the good people of Weston for getting electrification on the table. Remember the promise to run the Kitchener line with Tier 4 locomotives? The ones that still haven't arrived? Electrification was never, ever a priority.... a bridesmaid, but one that never caught the bouquet. The backlash to GTS and UPX is what validated electrification. A few of the handbills about all the diesel fumes on that line still can be found along the route.
The tradeoff has always been: electrify some part of GO, or spend the same capital expanding the service somewhere. The expansion has always won. Perhaps rightly so, as GO now serves more places than it did, needs to go even more places, and we still need more track to keep up with demand.
Electrification only became compelling to ML when it became obvious that diesel trains won't stop and start as fast as the RER concept requires.
- Paul
crs1026
Superstar
There is all sorts of opportunity to work with the International Center to route some bus lanes down the back so that a bus shuttle can serve Malton GO and the Viscount Hub as well as both air terminals, without ever touching Airport Road.
The rental car facility at the Phoenix airport has a bigger shuttle bus operation than what's needed here. This is incredibly small potatoes if the will is there.
The loop around the GTAA is a different story. I'm told that it's imposed by the GTAA to meet the needs of their employees, who don't necessarily get off the bus at Terminal 1 or 3. The cost to Miway and BT to run this loop is substantial....bascially adds a bus to each route....that's serious coin, and why they are focussed on moving service to Viscount. I don't know where TTC or GO stand. Personally, I would be a lot less inclined to take the 192 if I had to transfer to the Link.
- Paul