Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[Forgotten]

Electrification IS a relatively easy procedure when compared to other to the other costs and construction times of new infrastructure........aka Spadina Ext.

Yes there has to be a maintenance facility but those things could start soon. I find it amazing how Metrolinx and the Queen's Park profess to be so concerned about reducing emissions and getting people on to transit but they have yet to start GO electrification but have found the time and money to build thousands of new covered parking spots.

Again it wouldn't cost the TTC a cent as the UPX fare would stay the same and the discount would only apply if you took the TTC to get to the station. If you read my comment I also said that as electrification continues it can eventually add ET.N, EG, Humber. I know there are capacity constraints now due to being diesel and having too few trains.

The UPX with complete fare integration would be a great way to test the potential success of a RER system. If after fare integration and UPX still only adds modest new riders then that will be proof that RER will be a complete failure or conversely if the ridership soars then that bodes well for RER.

Right now the UPX carries nothing more than a busy bus. It has been a complete failure from a transit point of view because it wasn't built as transit but that doesn't mean they can't turn a lemon into lemonade. Tell Metrolinx to do a 6 month trial and see what happens.

Why does someone who lives in Vancouver full time, and hasn't been to Ontario since the last half century has happened, register on a Toronto board just to lecture us every day on how every <insert any local problem with complex technical, logistical, legal, regulatory concerns, and sometimes impracticality issues> could easily be solved by the next business day if only people in Toronto weren't such idiots, and acted more like Vancouver?

 

[KevinT]

Time to abandon this line of thought. It is seven months since the price reset and the trains are well used. More people will change travel patterns in time.

UPX. Successful and very busy at times. Wait until you can catch it at Mount Denis and you don't need to start downtown to catch it, or Metrolinx gets its shit together and digs under Crossways to properly connect Dundas West to Bloor GO/UPX. That will add a pair of major (convenient) access points other than Union Station.

I had a one way trip to the airport in August from Kitchener (my return flight landed directly back in Kitchener), and was quite happy to take GO to UPX at Weston. Served my needs great!

(My only complaint was that I couldn't figure out how to buy a Presto card in Kitchener at the last minute, so had to pay full fair at the machine for a paper ticket to Union and couldn't take advantage of the transfer discount at Weston.)

 

[ssiguy2]

For your information, I was born and raised in the London area and went to university at Carleton and U. Toronto in the 80s. I go back to Toronto every couple years and have family there. I know Toronto extremely well and living in Vancouver I have knowledge of how other cities cope and build infrastructure.

As far as UPX being a failure, it is, which is a shame as it certainly doesn't have to be. The service is good and the frequencies decent and it certainly beats the prior option or certainly taking your chances on the 427/Gardiner. The issue is the fares, they are just too damn expensive. Anyone going for a vacation from Pearson will reasonably consider it part of the trip but for the thousands who work at Pearson or commuters along the route, it is simply to expensive.

The reality is that most people who take transit are middle to lower income such as regular daily workers, students, and seniors. For someone making less than $20/hr in an already expensive city, the extra high fair is not optional. As the newer lower fares have proven, the ridership potential is there and the lower the price the more people will take advantage of it. The proof is in the pudding...........they lower the Presto fares by half but ridership has more than tripled.

 

[TOareaFan]

For your information, I was born and raised in the London area and went to university at Carleton and U. Toronto in the 80s. I go back to Toronto every couple years and have family there. I know Toronto extremely well and living in Vancouver I have knowledge of how other cities cope and build infrastructure.

As far as UPX being a failure, it is, which is a shame as it certainly doesn't have to be. The service is good and the frequencies decent and it certainly beats the prior option or certainly taking your chances on the 427/Gardiner. The issue is the fares, they are just too damn expensive. Anyone going for a vacation from Pearson will reasonably consider it part of the trip but for the thousands who work at Pearson or commuters along the route, it is simply to expensive.

The reality is that most people who take transit are middle to lower income such as regular daily workers, students, and seniors. For someone making less than $20/hr in an already expensive city, the extra high fair is not optional. As the newer lower fares have proven, the ridership potential is there and the lower the price the more people will take advantage of it. The proof is in the pudding...........they lower the Presto fares by half but ridership has more than tripled.

If you were building transit for the workers at Pearson you would have it go west from the airport not east.

 

[Forgotten]

For your information, I was born and raised in the London area and went to university at Carleton and U. Toronto in the 80s. I go back to Toronto every couple years and have family there. I know Toronto extremely well and living in Vancouver I have knowledge of how other cities cope and build infrastructure.

As far as UPX being a failure, it is, which is a shame as it certainly doesn't have to be. The service is good and the frequencies decent and it certainly beats the prior option or certainly taking your chances on the 427/Gardiner. The issue is the fares, they are just too damn expensive. Anyone going for a vacation from Pearson will reasonably consider it part of the trip but for the thousands who work at Pearson or commuters along the route, it is simply to expensive.

The reality is that most people who take transit are middle to lower income such as regular daily workers, students, and seniors. For someone making less than $20/hr in an already expensive city, the extra high fair is not optional. As the newer lower fares have proven, the ridership potential is there and the lower the price the more people will take advantage of it. The proof is in the pudding...........they lower the Presto fares by half but ridership has more than tripled.

Please do tell us how to get around the regulatory and legal requirements for EA's and competitive bidding and lead time for design work and property acquisition so that wires are in the air within a year. We're all too stupid to save ourselves from ourselves! While you're at it tell us where to get this money to make it free to the TTC! We're all dying to know!

 

[W. K. Lis]

If you were building transit for the workers at Pearson you would have it go west from the airport not east.

Isn't that what the Mississauga Transitway for? See link.

 

[TOareaFan]

Isn't that what the Mississauga Transitway for? See link.

Perhaps, but I was responding to a criticism of UP that it did not meet the needs of daily workers.

 

[TrickyRicky]

I don't think the powers that be even care what the ridership numbers are. I guarantee this thing will eventually be overcrowded but the original and fundamental purpose of the thing is just to exist. It exists so that some mover-and-shaker can pitch it as another bullet point when they are trying to snag a conference or corporate investment or real estate deal.

Once we understand this we can stop going on about the pricing. Toronto is so dang obsessed with pragmatic arguments, it can be a strength but it is also a weakness. Too much focus on production and not enough focus on production capacity. I agree the original pricing was too expensive but as I mentioned I took Vienna's equivalent and it cost 12 Euro one-way ($17.40) and 19 euro ($27.50) return. I though that was a fine service and good value.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

For your information, I was born and raised in the London area and went to university at Carleton and U. Toronto in the 80s. I go back to Toronto every couple years and have family there. I know Toronto extremely well and living in Vancouver I have knowledge of how other cities cope and build infrastructure.

As far as UPX being a failure, it is, which is a shame as it certainly doesn't have to be. The service is good and the frequencies decent and it certainly beats the prior option or certainly taking your chances on the 427/Gardiner. The issue is the fares, they are just too damn expensive. Anyone going for a vacation from Pearson will reasonably consider it part of the trip but for the thousands who work at Pearson or commuters along the route, it is simply to expensive.

The reality is that most people who take transit are middle to lower income such as regular daily workers, students, and seniors. For someone making less than $20/hr in an already expensive city, the extra high fair is not optional. As the newer lower fares have proven, the ridership potential is there and the lower the price the more people will take advantage of it. The proof is in the pudding...........they lower the Presto fares by half but ridership has more than tripled.

UPX wasn't designed for the average vacationer to use the point of it is for the besnus traveler coming into downtown Toronto on besnus from Person. Yes it may be convenient for some but the majority of travelers are solo besnus travelers.

 

[ssiguy2]

I do realize that but it was clearly a misguided adventure.

The UPX is ST/RER but the price is prohibitively high. $5 from Weston to Union isn't too bad for a fast service but that assumes people live right at Weston and work right at Union. For most that's not the case so that means buying a TTC ticket and that it about an extra $6/day on top of the UPX fare. For people on a budget that means the UPX is simply not feasible. People would love it to be an option but that requires, at a minimum, full fare integration which wouldn't cost the TTC a cent.

Even if you think that the UPX should only be for business travellers there is a VERY strong case to be made to have it as a fare integrated line for even 6 months. UPX is basically RER without the electrification and by having full fare integration for a trial Metrolinx will get a REAL life example of the potential of the line. If ridership is still low then that bodes very poorly for RER and the entire idea of RER may have to be re-thought. If it's a success then it can be used to see how ridership increases with fare integration, off-peak usage of a RER system, people's perceptions of the idea of RER with some meaningful feedback as opposed to taking educated guesses, split of peak/off-peak ridership as well as weekend, and determine it's ridership levels on Union, on nearby subway stations, and TTC routes.

It's built and because ridership is quite low and RER is still trying to figure out exactly what it's going to be when it grows up, use the UPX as a learning tool to make a transition to RER a more comfortable one or maybe even find out that RER isn't such a great idea after all.

Metrolinx has an unusual opportunity to find out what the potential positives and drawbacks will be with a RER system so take that opportunity and use it as a learning tool.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

The UPX is ST/RER but the price is prohibitively high. $5 from Weston to Union isn't too bad for a fast service but that assumes people live right at Weston and work right at Union. For most that's not the case so that means buying a TTC ticket and that it about an extra $6/day on top of the UPX fare. For people on a budget that means the UPX is simply not feasible. People would love it to be an option but that requires, at a minimum, full fare integration which wouldn't cost the TTC a cent.

UPX is now priced the same as the go train is from Weston and Bloor station. The TTC has nothing to do with UPX so why would they be interested in in splitting the fare with them? If UPX isn't feasible for your budget then don't use it the same can be said for go transit.

 

[ssiguy2]

I know it's the same as GO and if RER just ends up being more frequent GO service then RER is going to be a money pit that would make Mirabel blush. UPX ridership is very low and if those numbers are extrapolated over the entire RER system then the numbers will be horrid.

If you re-read my post I said that METROLINX has a rare opportunity to gauge the real impact of a RER system as opposed to spending $10 billion to find out it wasn't such a great idea. The fare integration trial wouldn't cost the TTC a cent and could go ahead without the TTC even agreeing. It would be a GO/Metrolinx study to see the ridership impact of fare integration to help establish a productive RER system with real life data and not educated guesses. The UPX fare would stay exactly the same as it is now but if the people arriving at the station took the TTC then their $3.25 would be deducted 100% from their UPX fare.

Metrolinx may even be surprised that revenues don't even fall because they are getting less revenue per passenger but conversely getting a lot more passengers. Look at UPX's own experience........they dropped the Presto fare by 50% and ridership tripled.

Seeing Metrolinx is spending billions on RER and pinning most of it's future transit ridership growth on it, wouldn't it be a good use of money to have a 6 month trial? Spending a penny to save a dollar is a good investment. It would also give them real data to study in terms of how a RER system would increase it's ridership but also it's impact on current commuting patterns, effects on Union, nearby subway stations, TTC routes, and regular GO service.

I'm sure the travelling public isn't going to bitch about their fares dropping $3.25 each way, it won't hurt the TTC one bit and will provide the TTC with valuable information about how the coming RER system will effect their system and people's commuting patterns, and would give Metrolinx some real hard data about the potential impacts of a RER system, good and bad, and use that information to make RER a real success and an easy transition and implementation.

Considering a 6 month trial would not come even close to pennies on the dollar of the cost of RER, it would be money well spent.

 

[muller877]

I know it's the same as GO and if RER just ends up being more frequent GO service then RER is going to be a money pit that would make Mirabel blush. UPX ridership is very low and if those numbers are extrapolated over the entire RER system then the numbers will be horrid.

A large problem with the accessibility of GO/UPX in Toronto is the lack of integration with the transit network around it. The TTC does not want it to succeed as it will diminish their empire-building efforts.

Most other transit agencies try to give connectivity but the TTC does not. They don't have dedicated GO stops and don't go out of their way to create these connections.

Does the Lawrence bus loop through Weston GO? No Does the TTC put as a high priority a connection between Dundas West GO and the subway a priority to releive capacity constraints at St George and Yonge-Bloor? No

Even station that have frequent GO service (Lakeshore) the TTC ignores. They build bus stops or stop branches a block away from a GO station to stop people from connecting (Mimico and Royal York).

So I would stop complaining about fares and start looking at creating easy connections. You would be surprised at the number of people willing to pay $5 more to avoid the overcapacity of the subway and bus networks. And $5 for a better service experience isn't too bad. People on the GO pay it every day.

 

[muller877]

I do realize that but it was clearly a misguided adventure.

The UPX is ST/RER but the price is prohibitively high. $5 from Weston to Union isn't too bad for a fast service but that assumes people live right at Weston and work right at Union. For most that's not the case so that means buying a TTC ticket and that it about an extra $6/day on top of the UPX fare. For people on a budget that means the UPX is simply not feasible. People would love it to be an option but that requires, at a minimum, full fare integration which wouldn't cost the TTC a cent.
.

The 52 bus goes to Pearson directly from Weston. Takes 25 minutes. And then a 10 minute walk to the Airport. (total 35 minutes)

UPX takes about 15 minutes and costs $5. I'd pay the extra $5 to save 20 minutes.

Weston residents have 2 choices for transit to the airport. They are lucky. And they get to pick a bus or a premium service for $5 more. You just want to save $$$$ and pass the cost onto the taxpayer (I don't care if it is Toronto or Ontario...we are one taxpayer)

As a taxpayer if you save 20 minutes of time you should have to pay a bit more for that added convenience. The $5 fare is equivalent to saving $15 an hour....personally I would charge more.

 

[robmausser]

A large problem with the accessibility of GO/UPX in Toronto is the lack of integration with the transit network around it. The TTC does not want it to succeed as it will diminish their empire-building efforts.

Most other transit agencies try to give connectivity but the TTC does not. They don't have dedicated GO stops and don't go out of their way to create these connections.

Does the Lawrence bus loop through Weston GO? No Does the TTC put as a high priority a connection between Dundas West GO and the subway a priority to releive capacity constraints at St George and Yonge-Bloor? No

Even station that have frequent GO service (Lakeshore) the TTC ignores. They build bus stops or stop branches a block away from a GO station to stop people from connecting (Mimico and Royal York).

So I would stop complaining about fares and start looking at creating easy connections. You would be surprised at the number of people willing to pay $5 more to avoid the overcapacity of the subway and bus networks. And $5 for a better service experience isn't too bad. People on the GO pay it every day.

This is changing though