nfitz
Superstar
I thought that was eliminated before the whole thing even started.
There's no capacity. If they simply dropped the Weston/Bloor fares to Union, that would likely use up all the excess capacity at peak.
Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited
mrgrieves
Active Member
The issue of pricing being off-market was very well discussed BEFORE the line began operations. It was discussed on boards like this, by groups like TTCRiders and in the media. So why is anyone at all surprised at the performance. The gov't was stubborn.
The only point I want to make is that Metrolinx keeps referring to a lack of awareness. However they have spent a TON of money marketing this service. I've seen adds downtown for months now. People know about it.
The only point I want to make is that Metrolinx keeps referring to a lack of awareness. However they have spent a TON of money marketing this service. I've seen adds downtown for months now. People know about it.
crs1026
Superstar
(Warning....rant on the way)
I believe that UPE was a "worst case" and not likely to be repeated in the same degree....but I agree with your concern.
The issue in my view is the lack of sensible change management insight and strategies by either the hands-on pro's (Metrolinx) or the amatuer cheering section (the UT crowd in the bleachers).
I have commented before that Presto (a very desirable initiative that I fully support) was not sensibly applied to UPE. If anyone thought the media was going to glom onto the $19 Presto fare, and not the $27 cash fare, they don't belong in Public Affairs jobs. Similarly, while Presto is wholly successful in the burbs, the average Torontonian doesn't know about it....yet. (that will change, but it wasn't the case in 2015 when UPE began to operate). Whenever we dwell on the cash fare, a whole bunch of transit we-know-better types chime in with "yes, but the fare is only $19 with Presto, and Presto is good for you, so we're right to be forcing it on you". The technical merits that make Presto a good thing don't define how you change behaviour around it. The travelling public missed the $19 fare, and they weren't ready to obtain a Presto card just to gain it.
Similarly, had UPE been painted green and white and named "GO Pearson", I believe that most Torontonians would have gotten it. The commentary in the average home would have been "Neat....we have a GO train to the Airport now". The transit intelligentsia has a million reason why a business-branded premium service makes sense. Guess what, folks....the average Joe didn't get it. Who is smarter - the average Joe who knows and loves GO, but doesn't resonate with UPE and calls the limo, or the transit geek with the million reasons why the up-scale branding is the better approach? We didn't know the customer very well. You only win the debate if the customer buys your product.
To digress from UPE - Personally, I have gotten a whole lot smarter by listening to the guys from Scarboro who have expressed some really dumb ideas in a really compelling manner. I'm now convinced that Scarboro does think that way (even if I disagree totally with what they are saying.). Whose behaviour needs changing - my logical analysis of the professionally compiled spreadsheet, or their homespun way of looking at how the cards have played out for the last 20 years?
We need to get over ourselves and base transit planning on some of these realities. Otherwise yes, we will try to build it....but the next incarnation of Ford Nation will cancel it.
- Paul
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ssiguy2
Senior Member
The Vancouver YVR extra fare is only charged on individually bought tickets but does not apply to monthly transit passes.
If you buy a 2 zone pass {which is equivalent to Metropass as the 1 zone is only good for the city of Vancouver} you can get to YVR from ANYWHERE in Greater Vancouver for the standard 2 zone monthly fare of $124. Of course the monthly pass is good on al SkyTrain and bus routes, Seabus, and a discount on WCE.
In other words for most in Greater Vancouver there is no extra payment and service is every 7 minutes.
Therefore the amount you pay for UPX is even more grotesque than you thought. Un a word..............you are getting screwed BIG TIME.
If you buy a 2 zone pass {which is equivalent to Metropass as the 1 zone is only good for the city of Vancouver} you can get to YVR from ANYWHERE in Greater Vancouver for the standard 2 zone monthly fare of $124. Of course the monthly pass is good on al SkyTrain and bus routes, Seabus, and a discount on WCE.
In other words for most in Greater Vancouver there is no extra payment and service is every 7 minutes.
Therefore the amount you pay for UPX is even more grotesque than you thought. Un a word..............you are getting screwed BIG TIME.
agoraflaneur
Active Member
I agree about the PR disaster: nobody heard $19, they only heard $27.
The variable pricing is way too complex: people don't want to think that much about transit. Drop the fares to a flat level for everyone, and if demand rises too much, increase the prices incrementally. I would suggest $15 regardless of presto.
I also wonder how the Union Station renovations are affecting ridership. It's pretty messy there and has been for a while.
In the end, I would like to see the line repurposed with more stations when it is electrified, or whatever is most efficient in the context of the GO upgrades.
The variable pricing is way too complex: people don't want to think that much about transit. Drop the fares to a flat level for everyone, and if demand rises too much, increase the prices incrementally. I would suggest $15 regardless of presto.
I also wonder how the Union Station renovations are affecting ridership. It's pretty messy there and has been for a while.
In the end, I would like to see the line repurposed with more stations when it is electrified, or whatever is most efficient in the context of the GO upgrades.
dowlingm
Senior Member
40 trips on GO from Malton-Union is $224.50, according to the fare calculator.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
If they included it in the air fare, as an option to get downtown, but that would involve the airlines and travel agencies.
YBZ is the IATA code for Union Station. YYZ is the IATA code for Pearson Airport.
Just ask the traveler, if they wish to have a transfer to YBZ which is downtown Toronto.
YBZ is the IATA code for Union Station. YYZ is the IATA code for Pearson Airport.
Just ask the traveler, if they wish to have a transfer to YBZ which is downtown Toronto.
wopchop
Building Toronto
kEiThZ
Superstar
It's much more fun to call the voters stupid than to actually think of dealing with their frustrations. See the vehement opposition to Smart Track from some. It's like they want to elect Doug Ford mayor.
...
When it comes to UPE, I remain convinced that price is just one of the issues. The fare structure is needlessly complex.
Compare to JFK Airtrain or Heathrow Express. With the former our price seems ridiculously high. With the latter, it seems reasonable. In reality, pricing is determined by competition, of which the biggest is Uber. Fares have to be competitive with Uber.
APTA-2048
Senior Member
Let's face it. Most voters are "stupid". They aren't going to be informed about everything unless they take it upon themselves to find out. You can only appeal to emotions so much before it becomes impractical. It's not the voters' fault, it's the politicians who take advantage of ignorance.
And I say that as someone who travels 2+ hours from North Rouge to Humber College daily.
And I say that as someone who travels 2+ hours from North Rouge to Humber College daily.
D
Duck
Guest
The UP Express website is very vague; how will this work this weekend for free rides? Literally just walk up to any station and walk on the train, no questions asked?
crs1026
Superstar
The fact that voters and transit customers operate from a fairly limited base of facts and insights based mostly on their own horizons shouldn't drive the debate to an emotional or purely subjective level. What is needed is some astute change strategies to help get people to see the direction and develop comfort with it.
Clearly UPE failed to observe some of these. We see similar issues in other debates. For instance, the debates on where to place the DRL hinges in part on whether people will walk a few blocks from King and Bay to use it. Everyone has an opinion, but nobody can really prove their point of view. If we get that one wrong, we will have an even more expensive white elephant. The equation should be (build it) + (plan how to remove barriers) + (figure out what actually works to sell it)
UPE vs taxi/limo us another example. One can mount the argument that UPE is somewhat cheaper than a limo to get downtown, even for two people. But does the difference make anyone scream 'Wow, UPE is waaay cheaper! What a great deal !' ? How many 'Wow' factirs will it take to change behaviour away from the limo? Again, it's the debate the buyer has mentally, and not the spreadsheet analyses, that drive behaviour. Have we considered enough aspects of that mental debate?
I find the Active Transportation advocates make this mistake a lot. If someone is unwilling to bike or walk, they are dismissed as 'part of the problem'. Whereas an astute change manager would just say 'OK we have a challenge here' and strategise what it would take to change that inclination.
Change is possible if you do it right.
- Paul
TOareaFan
Superstar
Attachments
mdrejhon
Senior Member
Metrolinx certainly has created a trust issue from UPX, but I think the LRTs will be a far bigger success -- including Hamilton LRT will be way more popular than UPX -- integrated into HSR fare and taking over HSR's busiest bus route -- our City has an even bigger perceived transit trust issue than Metrolinx does. They are perceived as breaking more HSR bus promises than Metrolinx breaks GO service promises. At least according to impression portrayed in the news and the general public.
Metrolinx has its own ridership successes, like Lakeshore 30-minute all day service, and all indications seem to indicate that the Eglinton Crosstown will be an immediate success. I look forward to seeing that LRT open (along with a few others) before Hamilton LRT does.
Needless to say, we're pressing hard (as part of a Hamilton LRT citizen advocacy) to avoid ignoring HSR's needs. (To be clear -- Hamilton Street Railway bus service, not high speed rail) and pushing for the "Rapid Ready" plan -- a local 10-year HSR bus expansion plan. We need the bus expansions needed to also to tie-in to the LRT. My spouse participated in the city hall transit open mike day earlier this week.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
I guess I was not that clear in my "worry about the future" post....of course Hamilton LRT and Hurontario LRT and GO ReR will be more "popular" than UP (assuming you are using popular as a description of ridership...so, yes, more than 2,500/day will use them).....but are they going to be popular enough to reach the ridership targets/goals/expectations that predicated their funding.