Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[Adjei]

I don't know why we are so clueless about wayfinding and signage here in Toronto. From TTC to Metrolinx, all clueless.

 

[Tuscani01]

I've seen the signage in both T1 and T3.

That's great. Congrats!

That doesn't mean the signage works. I've been to many airports and Pearson's is by far the weakest in terms of directing you to transit, including the UPE. Just because signage exists, doesn't mean it is serving its purpose, and clearly, it isn't.

Wayfinding isn't something people should need to seek out. It shouldn't be a case of wandering around until you find a sign. It needs to placed in a way that is easily seen by people as they walk under it, and it needs to be clear and concise. Pearson's signs are none of these.

And again, with the ability to see taxis as soon as you leave the arrivals area, hopping into a taxi is a no brainer for most. It's literally the first thing you see. If you want more people using the train, you need to make the fact that the train exists very clear before people make the decision to hop into a cab.

 

[TOareaFan]

You're assuming that everyone traveling to Toronto is from Toronto. It's easy for us, because we know it exists and where to look. For people coming from outside of Toronto, it hasn't been easy.

Like your friend?

just sent me a text saying he took a cab home

Judging by the ridership numbers, it seems like many are keeping away. When cabs are waiting within spitting distance of the arrivals exit, of course someone is going to choose one right away over looking around for the UP terminal. (Which is why he ended up in a cab instead... it was waiting right there)

Maybe that is why they are not at the ridership of 5k a day....there are 2,500 people wandering around looking for the train. Cabs will always be closer to the arrivals exit than trains....it is a physical impossibility to get the trains closer....that said, the trains are about as close as they possibly could be to the terminal and I find it hard to believe that someone looking for the train but going towards cabs would not be able to see the train across the road and say "oh, crap, there it is".

There are many airports with much better signage than ours that we can learn from. Madrid's Barajas airport has an amazing system that is clear and intuitive, Heathrow has their signage in bright colours that stand out easily, making them no trouble to find, and even YVR here in Canada has signs along corridors that people walk through pointing you to the train from arrivals. Heck, even Shanghai does a better job of directing you to the trains.

I am starting to think that your friends story of is less reality and more a fable that allowed you to get to the "we can't ever do things as well as others do" lesson

 

[TOareaFan]

@Tuscani Not an important fact but did your friend arrive at T3 or T1? I imagine getting to the UP station from T3 might not seem very logical, but T1?

Actually I think the signage in T3 is the most logical. I don't use T3 very often but was there a couple of times last month and I liked the idea that the signs in the terminal just say "trains" rather than confuse things with mutltiple types of trains and destinations when the fact is no matter where you want to go via train you have to go the same spot first....so just keep it simple with the words "trains" and when you get to the train station it becomes clear you take the people mover 1 stop to get the train to city.

 

[Tuscani01]

Like your friend?





Maybe that is why they are not at the ridership of 5k a day....there are 2,500 people wandering around looking for the train. Cabs will always be closer to the arrivals exit than trains....it is a physical impossibility to get the trains closer....that said, the trains are about as close as they possibly could be to the terminal and I find it hard to believe that someone looking for the train but going towards cabs would not be able to see the train across the road and say "oh, crap, there it is".



I am starting to think that your friends story of is less reality and more a fable that allowed you to get to the "we can't ever do things as well as others do" lesson

^ And this is why we can't do anything well in Toronto. People have valid concerns about wayfinding, and are simply dismissed for stupid reasons such as "hard to take too seriously comments from someone so clueless that they refer to the link train as a monorail" and "I am starting to think that your friends story of is less reality and more a fable that allowed you to get to the "we can't ever do things as well as others do" lesson"

Get it through your head. It's not just people within my own social circle, its many more. There are improvements that need to be made, and even Metrolinx has acknowledged this. Dismissing everyone's concerns just because you can handle it does nothing to solve the issue. We, posting here, in a transit focused forum, are not the average user of Pearson or the UP Express. We already come to it with more knowledge than the typical user. You can't expect everyone else to know what we know, nor care much about it. Not everyone is a transit nerd.

 

[TOareaFan]

^ And this is why we can't do anything well in Toronto. People have valid concerns about wayfinding, and are simply dismissed for stupid reasons such as "hard to take too seriously comments from someone so clueless that they refer to the link train as a monorail" and "I am starting to think that your friends story of is less reality and more a fable that allowed you to get to the "we can't ever do things as well as others do" lesson"

Get it through your head. It's not just people within my own social circle, its many more. There are improvements that need to be made, and even Metrolinx has acknowledged this. Dismissing everyone's concerns just because you can handle it does nothing to solve the issue. We, posting here, in a transit focused forum, are not the average user of Pearson or the UP Express. We already come to it with more knowledge than the typical user. You can't expect everyone else to know what we know, nor care much about it. Not everyone is a transit nerd.

No but not everyone is a regular traveller like your friend. As Nfitz pointed out, the construction over the past few years of construction would have made it obvious where the train was going....the signage points to where it is (and contrary to your original post, there is signage), the staff know where it is and it is clearly visibile from the taxi/car pick up area.......what is baffling me (and I sense others) is that this well travelled individual couldn't have figured out where the train is.......and you have to wonder that (for this individual) short of a personal escort from the plane they were never going to find the train?

Yes, we on these boards may be the exceptions at one end of the scale, but I think your friend may be at the far other end of the scale....perhaps?

 

[rbt]

And again, with the ability to see taxis as soon as you leave the arrivals area, hopping into a taxi is a no brainer for most. It's literally the first thing you see. If you want more people using the train, you need to make the fact that the train exists very clear before people make the decision to hop into a cab.

Sometimes I wonder if this is on purpose. GTAA gets money ($2?) for every cab pickup. AFAIK, their cut of the UPX far was eliminated.

Then I remember "Customs area A <- Customs Area B ->" signs which do absolutely nothing to tell you which customs area you should be going through. Signs at Pearson do need a huge improvement. It's trivial to find your gate but coming in is another story entirely.

 

[nfitz]

Signs at Pearson do need a huge improvement. It's trivial to find your gate but coming in is another story entirely.

Oh, there's certainly issues. My last visit to T3, I dutifully followed the signage to food (and to where I new the food court used to be) with two small kids in tow. And when I got there, there was no sign of food, but lots of construction. But there was an information desk, and it was easy to ask. When I asked why they hadn't covered over the sign during the construction he seemed at a loss of words. Then I asked for a ladder and some duct tape ...

But on the return trip to T3, I was quite impressed with how clear the signage was to the Trains in T3. And I was in T1 just before the line opened, and was impressed with how clear the signage there was too.

What Pearson isn't good at is modifying signage as conditions change. And that bizarre customs area A/B thing ...

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

Cue the scandal over low UPX ridership:

UP Express ridership dropping, now only 2,500 passengers a day

It seems the much-maligned UP Express is becoming more of a white elephant than anyone expected.

Earlier this summer, Metrolinx reported that the gold-plated shuttle that runs between Pearson Airport and Union Station was running nearly empty during the Pan Am games, at about eight per cent capacity.

According to the government transportation agency, at the time about 3,250 riders were taking the train each day, well below the 5,000 rider goal Metrolinx set for the first year of the service.

But since then, instead of numbers slowly increasing, they have dropped – by a stunning 23 per cent, to only 2,500 riders per day.

http://www.citynews.ca/2015/09/22/t...ship-dropping-now-only-2500-passengers-a-day/

Anne Marie Aikins refuted this on Twitter and claimed that ridership numbers are not decreasing.

And in fact, when you refer to the UPX Board report, it states "Average daily ridership since launch is approximately 2,500". That does not mean 2,500 rode it yesterday. It includes lower ridership from when it first started.

Normally I would have some distrust and accuse Metrolinx of spin. But in this case, its TTCriders once again doing their own spin. Remember, this is not the first time TTCriders has released a shite ridership estimate. Remember when they counted a few trips in the early morning (not peak air travel time) and extrapolated based on those observations? That was ridiculous.

 

[TOareaFan]

Anne Marie Aikins refuted this on Twitter and claimed that ridership numbers are not decreasing.

And in fact, when you refer to the UPX Board report, it states "Average daily ridership since launch is approximately 2,500". That does not mean 2,500 rode it yesterday. It includes lower ridership from when it first started.

Normally I would have some distrust and accuse Metrolinx of spin. But in this case, its TTCriders once again doing their own spin. Remember, this is not the first time TTCriders has released a shite ridership estimate. Remember when they counted a few trips in the early morning (not peak air travel time) and extrapolated based on those observations? That was ridiculous.

I noticed the same bolded discrepancy that you noted in between the board report and the CITY News report on the matter......but I also went back and looked at the earlier stories about the 3,250 number and it too seemed to be a "from inception" average. So if the "from inception" average has dropped to 2,500 that means that the current numbers (your "rode it yesterday" concept) may actually be lower than 2,500 to have brought the overall average down by 750.

That said, I am a firm believer that you don't measure the success of any new transit line on such a short term basis. They had/have a plan that projects ridership to a certain number in a certain amount of time.....stick with it and judge its/their success at the end of that time.

I often think back to the launch of the just after morning rush train on the KW line (the train that leaves Brampton at about 8:20 a.m.) I rode that on day 2 and thought to myself "maybe I was wrong, maybe we don't need more trains" as there could not have been more than 150 people on that 10 car go train that day. I also remember me thinking (about a year later as I got off what looked to be a +/- 90% full train) "ridership sure grew in a hurry".

I have no idea if (or when) they will hit their 5k a day ridership....I suspect they will....they may have to tweek some things along the way......but I know that judging it in the short term is foolish and, I imagine, has some political motivation.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Normally I would have some distrust and accuse Metrolinx of spin. But in this case, its TTCriders once again doing their own spin. Remember, this is not the first time TTCriders has released a shite ridership estimate. Remember when they counted a few trips in the early morning (not peak air travel time) and extrapolated based on those observations? That was ridiculous.

I am throughly unimpressed by TTCriders and their agitprop antics - for a ridership group, it sure has an "interesting" but unrepresentative mix of members.

AoD

 

[TOareaFan]

 

[Tuscani01]

When they say buses are operating until further notice... does this mean a service replacing the UPX, or use existing buses?

 

[TOareaFan]

When they say buses are operating until further notice... does this mean a service replacing the UPX, or use existing buses?

since there are no buses from Union to the airport I took it as buses have been provided to replace the UP during this disruption.

 

[Tuscani01]

That sounds like a logistics nightmare.