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[dan e 1980]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

Overhead wire also has the benefit of being usable by a wider variety of vehicles.

and you don't have to close off streets or build costly overpasses.

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

An LRT like the one you posted above would be roughly $3 - 4 million, where as a subway unit (just a single car) is around $2.5 million.

True, but a two car subway could probably carry the same capacity or more than that entire tram. When you look at service life, capacity, and speed (speed increases capacity because it can run more trips in the same amount of time) the subway cars have a higher start up cost but as long as the passengers are there the costs are similar over the long haul. It matters more that capacity and demand are matched.

Another factor to include is the cost of the track and electrictrifaction system. I believe it is cheaper for an overhead wire system than a 3rd rail system. Overhead wire also has the benefit of being usable by a wider variety of vehicles.

I'm not sure... I haven't read any info either way. You would think it would be cheaper to use overhead wires because it seems simpler, especially at switches... but why doesn't the regular subway use an overhead wire? They found it fairly easy to use an overhead wire on the streetcar tunnels.

and you don't have to close off streets or build costly overpasses.

If you don't build grade separation you don't get the benefits of grade separation. The Spadina LRT is slower than the subway because of all the intersections. Not building grade separations will basically result in what is being built on St.Clair or what exists on Spadina... not that great for going all the way to the airport.

 

[Antiloop33rpm]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

I'm not sure... I haven't read any info either way. You would think it would be cheaper to use overhead wires because it seems simpler, especially at switches... but why doesn't the regular subway use an overhead wire? They found it fairly easy to use an overhead wire on the streetcar tunnels.

It may have to do with heavy use of subway lines and the need for a larger source of power. I know some regular passenger trains in Britain actually use a third rail for power supply. It may also have to do with the actual design of the vehicles themselves. Perhaps subway cars are designed more efficiently when the mechanics and electronics can be placed at the bottom of the car and not at the top (perhaps also reducing the height of the vehicle and this reducing the tunnel size needed).

Im sure I could find an answer if I really wanted, but, instead Im going to go to bed and just hope some knowledgable forumer has the solution and saves me the effort.

Edit: It appears I was wrong. In fact 3rd rail seems to be the cheaper method between itself and overhead wire, and it is in fact overhead that deliver up to 25kV where as 3rd rail can deliver a maximum of only 1.2kV.

So scratch part of my original statement. Instead I would state the disadvantages as still being greater flexibilty with other vehicles using an overhead line, and if the line is exposed, then weather, especially winter, could be a serious problem. Third rail does have more safety risks associated with it since it is lying on the ground and someone who ends up on the tracks could risk electrocution.

 

[cdl42]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

Speed is also limited with 3rd rail.

With things like power delievery systems, don't just think as one being "better" than the other, just different with advantages and disadvantages based upon the situation. A 3rd rail in a tunnel situation like the TTC subway makes sense because it's easier to maintain and there's little chance of conflict. In London, UK south of the city uses 3rd rail while north of the city uses overhead, meaning that any trains that cross systems must be hybrid and work with both (including the chunnel Eurostear trains). The tube in London uses 4 rails in order to minimise corrosion to the tunnel linings. In Madrid the 3rd rail hangs from the roof of the tunnel.

Generally overhead wires is the accepted system for aboveground systems these days.

 

[dan e 1980]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

that's why i was thinking overhead lines might workout better in this case. it's alot safer.

 

[spmarshall]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

I just noticed today coming off the VIA train that the Amtrak train to New York that shares the platform has a diesel engine that has a third rail connector for travel on the Metro-North line and the approach tracks into Penn Station. Like London, New York uses both overhead and third-rail for its commuter trains - the LIRR and the two Northern Metro-North routes use third rail, The Metro-North trains on the New Haven use both third rail into Grand Central and overhead on the Northeastern Corridor (and the electric NJ Transit lines use overhead).

 

[dan e 1980]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

here's a pic from the green party candidate.....

 

[green22]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

"you don't build grade separation you don't get the benefits of grade separation. The Spadina LRT is slower than the subway because of all the intersections."

Intersections can slow down speed somewhat, but quick speeds attained especially if you have flashing lights and arms and/or activated signal priority. Spadina is a particularly bad example as the Toronto transportation department has not allowed the TTC to operate the signal priority which was installed (Transport has authority over all Toronto roads since 2000).
The situation on the weston line is more analogous to what exists in Minneapolis, Dallas, Calgary etc (outside of downtown) or indeed with GO lines that encounter at-grade crossings.
Another factor is the number of stops. I doubt that anyone would propose the frequency of stops that occours on Spadina on a Weston line.
Another factor is boarding times. It is likely that a pay in advance system would be implemented on any Weston right-of-way sytem. Spadina is slowed down by a large number of boardings on the crowded route (some with cash). While the Spadina streetcar is financially successful it could be made faster.
Most of the speed benefits associated with a subway could be achieved with light rail in the corridor without expensive grade separations. Subways along this or other corridors should be debated when issues of capacity arise.

 

[adma]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

Interesting thing tonight--I was driving around the old Town of Weston, noticing a flurry of NDP signs, scattered Tory and scarcely any for Tonks--conscious of course that if Blue 22's an electoral issue anywhere, it's *here*.

Even more interesting is that as I crossed the tracks on John Street, the car radio scanned onto Q-107 playing--get this--April Wine's "Fast Train".

Wow. What poetic synchronicity.

 

[Jarrek]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

De Angelis-Pater (grn) was really good in the begining byt toward the end of the debate she couldn't answer any more questions because she said her brain was shutting down - probably to conserve battery power. i thought she was cute.

What's with these Green Party candidates?

At the Etobicoke-Lakeshore (Most) Candidates debate I didn't know what to think of Phil Ridge the Green Party candidate. Whenever it was his turn to answer a question he constructed his answers by saying ... "for this question I'll just read out of the Green Party platform book ..." ... "Again ... I'll ready from the Green Party Platform..."

He did that at least three times, leading many people to erupt in laughter.

Provided some interesting humour though.

 

[dan e 1980]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

Intersections can slow down speed somewhat, but quick speeds attained especially if you have flashing lights and arms and/or activated signal priority.

if you look at the map, i think weston can tolerate grade crossings. it's a very short strech. when the go train pulls into weston station, it slows down anyway so it's not like you have speeding trains pasing through grade crossings which can be dangerous if a car stalls on the tracks or something.

Interesting thing tonight--I was driving around the old Town of Weston, noticing a flurry of NDP signs, scattered Tory and scarcely any for Tonks--conscious of course that if Blue 22's an electoral issue anywhere, it's *here*.

i still think tonks is gonna win. outside the old town of weston, he has a stronghold. alot of people vote for him simply because he's liberal.

What's with these Green Party candidates?

green is not the color of the party but rather of the grass they smoke before they get infront of the crowd. :lol

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

The situation on the weston line is more analogous to what exists in Minneapolis, Dallas, Calgary etc (outside of downtown) or indeed with GO lines that encounter at-grade crossings.

I'm responding to the picture Dan posted which shows a LRT on the street. An LRT running on Weston Road would be much slower than the GO. If the LRT was running next to the railway tracks the new tracks would probably be grade separated because if the running frequency was high the potential for accidents would be high. If you look at the frequency of LRTs down Spadina... if the LRT along the railway corridor approached that the neighbours would go nuts with the gates and bells going off every 3-4 minutes.

 

[dan e 1980]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

enviro, i wasn't talking about weston road. there's no room for a ROW thouh i wouldn't mind a streetcar. i know the bells would drive people crazy but i wonder if there is a need for bells at the grade crossings *sometimes* ?

maybe bells can be sounded to regular trains and maybe they could just use the flashing lights for a LRT. people will see the flashing lights, if people can see a signaled intersection, they can see the lights.

you can setup a hybrid signaling system. when the LRT line is clear, no lights. when a LRT is close you can have a yellow light, a few seconds later you can lower the bar and then have all the lights flashing without any sound. you can still have that "chirp" sound for deaf people. LRT's can stop faster than a frieght train if they see something on the tracks. the trackage is straight. you can see far ahead if anything is blocking the path, not to mention you're slowing down because you are pulling into a station.

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

I can tell you that even with the raised ROW on Queens Quay and tracks which are quite visible and a bright red streetcar which should also be very visible there are three or more collisions between cars which turned onto the ROW "not seeing the streetcar"... if the LRT on the Weston corridor went fast enough to have a reasonable trip time to the airport the speed at collision would be much higher and much more dangerous. A derailing of a long LRT after a collision with a car that rushed the crossing or "didn't see the LRT" could result in a lot of deaths. The more people on the vehicle the greater the precautions that should be taken to avoid collisions. No sound of bells or frustration of closed streets is worth 200 lives.

 

[dan e 1980]

Re: Mon. Jan. 16th-ALL CANDIDATES DEBATE-ARL vs. PUBLIC TRAN

i know enviro but there has to be a way to make it safe without having to do grade separation.

if grade seperation had to be done...

john street - doesn't need it. the station is right on the street. the train is crawling on the tracks at this point. no need to sink the railbed. traffic isn't a problem. it's mostly used by locals and people can use king or church to get across if it's always busy here. you can put a sign on weston road that says local traffic only for john street. the train is stopped here so there is no worry for a collision.

king street, not heavily traveled by cars, it's mostly a local street, very close to john street and trains are still going slow here. you can sink the rail bed for the LRT if you want.

church street, still close to the station but this street is somewhat used as a cross-grid route from cars that want access from weston road to jane street plus local traffic and TTC. you can sink the railbed here for the LRT.