ehlow
Senior Member
GTAA: because they can and want to milk Metrolinx for money
Metrolinx: because they have to in order to run a train service to the airport
Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited
GTAA: because they can and want to milk Metrolinx for money
Metrolinx: because they have to in order to run a train service to the airport
TOareaFan
Superstar
The "replace lost parking revenue" line was a colossal PR mistake. They should have just called it what it is....a contribution to the land lease payment they make to the feds.
GTAA pays a land lease for the entire airport grounds......it is a major expense item for them. They have various sources of revenue including lease income they generate from letting various other parties operate their businesses on that airport land. Metrolinx is getting the access to some of the airport lands to build a station and operate rail service. The fee per rider is simply GTAA charging for that business to operate.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
Am I alone in thinking that ML may have a public relations nightmare when UPX opens? I'm reading comments about the UPX online and people seem to be um... unimpressed to say the least. To make matters worse I doubt Toronto City Council is not going to stay quiet about the UPX issue. We already have some councilors making noise.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
I think there may be some rough PR days ahead up to opening. All the media I have read/heard seem to be taking the $20-$30 range (which in and of itself is not something ML have put out there) and turned that into "$30". To a lot of people who are not on these boards or following transit initiatives closely, this is the first they are hearing about this line and the negativity is spreading.
How big a PR issue that is after opening will be seen in ridership. If the thing is decently received and used and tracking towards its projections then people will accept that it is priced right for its target market(s) and is not a drain on resources. If the ridership fails to materialize at the price points introduced and ML does not adjust its model it will be a PR issue (and a real issue) that will continue on. I would suggest that a few/several months of that model after the Pan Am games will be required to see how it is working.
As for Toronto City Council, I really don't see them having a voice in this. It is a provincially funded line on track that the province owns and Toronto is not paying for it nor are they operating it.
ehlow
Senior Member
Yes, people who comment online hate the colours & look of the the trains with a passion it seems. They also hate the price, even though it hasn't been announced.
Having said that, I don't think you can take reddit comments, this forum, and blog TO comments and assume it's representative of the population as a whole. If it were, then Soknacki would be polling at 90%.
denfromoakvillemilton
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Not at all. I am with you on this. It will be interesting. I bet Eglinton West will get built sooner then later because of this. People are not going to accept 30 dollars.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
$2 is to be a fee in lieu of parking paid to the Greater Toronto Airport Authority.
Does that mean soon the GTAA will impose a $2 fee on taxis and limos?
Does that mean soon after that, the GTAA will also impose a $2 fee on cars that drop off or pickup people at the airport?
Does that mean if you're picking a person from a flight, and that person is taking extra time getting through customs, and because of the NO PARKING, you have to circle the roadway until that person gets through, you will be charged $2 for each loop of the roadway?
Does that mean $2 will have to collected from each passenger using public transit to get to or from the airport?
What if you walk or bike to or from the airport? Will $2 also be collected, since you are not parking?
Does that mean soon the GTAA will impose a $2 fee on taxis and limos?
Does that mean soon after that, the GTAA will also impose a $2 fee on cars that drop off or pickup people at the airport?
Does that mean if you're picking a person from a flight, and that person is taking extra time getting through customs, and because of the NO PARKING, you have to circle the roadway until that person gets through, you will be charged $2 for each loop of the roadway?
Does that mean $2 will have to collected from each passenger using public transit to get to or from the airport?
What if you walk or bike to or from the airport? Will $2 also be collected, since you are not parking?
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
That doesn't mean that Council will stay quiet about the issue. I guarantee you that there will be councilors on TV complaining about the lack of stations and the absurdly expensive fare. The public will be very receptive to these criticisms.
The good thing for Metrolinx is that they can tell people to wait a few more years for GO RER. But a lot of people will still be upset that business elites are getting decent transit ahead of the rest of us.
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denfromoakvillemilton
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Thanks for the tip off.
http://www.thestar.com/news/city_ha...xpress_train_affordable_councillor_urges.html
Toronto Councillor Josh Matlow (see Josh Matlow’s policard) fears people will end up being gouged by high fares and a special tax to travel on the rapid transit line from Union Station to Pearson airport.
Matlow is looking to ensure fares are affordable — meaning less than the planned $20 to $30 per person Metrolinx is looking at charging. And he wants to scrap a $2 special fee that would compensate the Greater Toronto Airports Authority (GTAA) for lost parking revenue.
“If Toronto council stays quiet, it’s essentially supporting the wrong plan, which is unfair and unaffordable,” he told the Star.
Matlow has crafted a motion asking city council to take a strong stand at next week’s meeting.
Metrolinx, the provincial transit agency building the $456-million rail link, hasn’t announced final fares but said earlier this month that they are expected to be between $20 to $30, plus the airport fee.
Taking a trip from Union Station to Pearson in an airport limo currently costs $58; it’s about $55 by taxi. That means it could end up being cheaper for couples to take private vehicle services to their flights than to take the new rail line.
The Toronto Airport Express bus is about $27, but that service is slated to end Oct. 31.
Matlow says a trip on the new Union Pearson (UP) Express airport train should cost closer to the price of the TTC’s $3 cash fare.
He noted that many airports are connected to the local transit system.
In Vancouver, for example, the trip from the airport to downtown costs $9, dropping to $7.75 at night and on weekends.
“The Union Pearson Express should be something that is celebrated,” Matlow said. “I think Metrolinx will find a lot of upset people if the only rapid transit link to the airport is unaffordable.”
The councillor is hoping for broad support when his motion is considered by council next week.
However, Metrolinx spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins said the airport link was not meant to be like transit. Aimed at time-pressed business executives, the trip will take 25 minutes, with trains departing every 15 minutes.
“Business travellers are used to paying the cost of a cab and this will definitely be cheaper than the cost of a cab from downtown,” Aikins said. “It’s looking to be comparable to the express bus.”
Matlow said he doesn’t understand the airport parking fee that is expected to be tacked on to UP Express fares. The agreement between the GTAA and Metrolinx calls for a fee of $1.85 expressed in 2011 dollars. When inflation is added, the tab is expected to come to about $2.
“It’s one thing to pay for parking, but people shouldn’t be paying for not parking. It’s crazy.”
Aikins said Metrolinx couldn’t do anything about the charge, which was insisted on by the GTAA that runs the airport.
“That was something that the GTAA requires,” she said. “We had no control over that. We had to agree to that if we wanted to build a station there.”
GTAA spokesperson Corrinne Madden said the airport must raise revenues to cover its costs, and non-aeronautical fees, such as parking, form an important component of revenues.
The fee only recovers a portion of lost revenues, Madden said.
The current agreement between Metrolinx and the GTAA — a private, non-profit entity — establishes a base fee of $1.85, subject to inflation, she said, adding the final fare will be decided later this year.
Airport rail line fees around the world
Vancouver
Vancouver International Airport to downtown via the TransLink transit line: 15 km, $9
New York City
Newark AirTrain to Penn Station: 27 km, $12.50 U.S. ($13.61 Canadian)
JFK AirTrain to Manhattan, linking to subway: 26 km, $7.50 U.S. ($8.16 Canadian)
Chicago
O’Hare International Airport to downtown via Chicago Transit Authority trains: 30 km, $5 U.S. ($5.44 Canadian)
Midway International Airport to downtown using Chicago Transit Authority trains: 17 km, $2.25 U.S. ($2.45 Canadian)
San Francisco
San Francisco International Airport to downtown via Bay Area Rapid Transit: 22 km, $8.25 U.S. ($8.98 Canadian)
London
Heathrow Express train to London: 24 km, £21 ($38.25 Canadian)
Barcelona
Barcelona-El Prat Airport to city centre via Renfe train: 57 km, 2.15 to 10.30 euros ($3.13 to $14.98 Canadian)
Seoul
Incheon Airport Railroad Express to downtown Seoul: 14,500 won ($15.50 Canadian)
Jonathan Forani
Well TigerMaster, you are clearing not the only one.
TOareaFan
Superstar
Sure, I did not mean they won't try and have a voice but their voice will (should) have next to zero impact. In effect they would be saying "other places like Chicago have subways to their airports, we did not build that so we want a premium level service built by someone else to have subway like fares because we have no subway alternative."
christiesplits
Senior Member
I think Metrolinx have botched the marketing of UPX from the start. The press release even states that the UPX is primarily for "business travelers." That portrays the train as being a luxurious coach catering only to the elites of society and paid for by Joe and Doris's tax dollars.
ehlow
Senior Member
I keep hearing this, that people would build 10 km of LRT because the UPX is too expensive.
I mean, firstly, the price that everyone seems to know is 30 or 25 dollars hasn't been announced yet. But let's assume that it's 30 dollars.
My question is this: wouldn't it be way, way easier to reduce the price of UPX and add a station at Eglinton & Mt Dennis, than to build an LRT extension simply because the price of the existing transit line is too high?
rbt
Senior Member
While everyone in Canada is paying to build this (very little of the Georgetown work is UPX specific; just the Pearson segment which the feds funded) those office buildings within 2km of Union Station directly contribute hundreds of millions of dollars toward federal tax revenue and billions indirectly (employee income tax, supporting businesses and their staff, etc.)
Increasing those revenues by just 1% will easily pay down the UPX component of this line over the next 30.
The bulk of the Georgetown corridor improvements are required by Metrolinx and will be used for frequent commuter rail service and possibly HSR service. That mainline work was necessary whether UPX exists or not. Central Lakeshore took decades to grade separate; this took 5 years. Hopefully the remaining lines take a similar amount of time as Georgetown South.
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TOareaFan
Superstar
You may want to consult page 5 of this pdf.
http://your32.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/The-Big-Move-Projects-In-Progress-Profiles.pdf
Looks like the bolded part in your post was 100% funded provincially.
denfromoakvillemilton
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And what incentive do they have to reduce the price of UPX when there is a GO service on the corridor for less the half the price? This is supposed to be for the business class right? They have also sank so much money into this, no reason to a take loss, which is fine and I understand that.
Your question: because the Eglinton West extension would cost less then 500 million and it would allow those who don't use the TTC to the airport to do so now because the cab is too much or the transfer to the bloor plus + airport rocket is too long. And they should have had a station at Mount Dennis already... but that's was an oversight yet again.