Toronto Union Pearson Express | ?m | ?s | Metrolinx | MMM Group Limited

[rbt]

The UPX legacy will likely be tied to the squabbles Metrolinx had with corridor residents, but I think a decade from now we will be looking back at how short-sighted this project was.

With luck those 2 tracks will be used for HSR to London stopping at Pearson on the way, and the other 2 tracks will be frequent GO Rex service.

The 2 track branch to T1 will likely be used by an airport people mover to go between T1, T3, and the Pearson train terminal.

None of the big budget pieces will be unused but your right that it will be radically different than David Collenette intended.

 

[smallspy]

-The bulky fleet is eventually replaced with Bombardier Talent 2's after changes in FRA regulations allow for it.

First off, the FRA has no jurisdiction on what happens here in Canada.

Second, there are no promises that the FRA will allow non-complaint equipment to run with complaint equipment. All that they have said is that they "will look into it" once the railroads have fully implemented their respective PTC installations.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[dowlingm]

Worth remembering that Talents and other EuroDMUs will only be allowed on the mainline without temporal separation (Ottawa) if:

TC adopt likely FRA standard which will involve positive train control
or
TC adopt looser standard than likely FRA where Euro CEM alone is deemed sufficient in a collision with a mainline consist.

Bear in mind here that TC is already looking to adopt the toughest of the three options FRA has put on the table for DOT111 tank car replacement, so option b is possible but I don't think it can be deemed likely. I know Metrolinx have called for interest in a signalling upgrade which may be PTC in nature, but US experience to date indicates that won't come cheap or easy.

(I hadn't refreshed the page in a while, Dan pretty much said it already)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

http://metronews.ca/news/toronto/11...ld-you-pay-to-ride-the-union-pearson-express/

Contributed A rendering of what the Union Pearson Express will look like once completed in 2015, in time for Pan-Am games.

The high-speed rail line between Union Station and Toronto’s Pearson Airport is nearing completion, but the fares have yet been set.

There have been estimates that the fare could be up to $30 and a 2012 auditor general’s report found that the fare would have to be $28 for the transit project to break even.

However, Metrolinx hasn’t released its own estimate yet, said Metrolinx spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins. “And we don’t want to speculate.”
Related:

UP Express fare to include a fee in lieu of airport parking
New Hamilton GO station to be ready for 2015, says Metrolinx official
Metrolinx launches environmental assessment on Finch LRT storage facility

Metrolinx is looking at a number of options including setting variable fares for passengers boarding at different stations, as well as senior, student and group rates, said Aikins.

“At this point in time, with the working numbers that we’re looking at, if two people were to take the UP Express from downtown Toronto to the airport, it would be cheaper than a cab,” she said. “We’re trying to keep it so it’s competitive.”

To put that in perspective, the cab fare between Union Station and Pearson is $55, according to Beck Taxi. A taxi from the UP Express stop at Dundas West Station to Pearson is $45. A pre-booked airport limo is about $50 and about $40 from Dundas West.

Metrolinx should have its business case and fare recommendations ready to go before the board before the end of the year, she said. The UP Express is on schedule to be running by spring of next year.

In the meantime, will you ride the UP Express? And how much would you pay? Consult the map below, which shows the airport limo rates for different areas of the city, as well as the UP Express stops.

Keep in mind, to use the UP Express, you still need to get to one of its three stations and the TTC Airport Rocket bus from Kipling Station, which is part of the regular $3 TTC fare, will continue as an alternative once the UP Express is running.

By comparison, it takes about one hour and 15 minutes to ride the subway and Airport Rocket from Union Station and the UP Express will only take 25 minutes.


This map shows airport limo rates between Toronto and the Pearson, as well as the UP Pearson Express stops and the major TTC lines. Click on the map to see the exact rate for your area.

Green = the limo rate is less than $40

Yellow = $40 and $49,

Orange = $50 – $60

Red = More than $60
How much would you pay to ride the UP Express?
$5 to $15$15 to $25$25 to $35This service sounds pointless if you don't live near the TTCI would ride the UP Express no matter the fare cost
VoteView Results

 

[ksun]

I totally agree that the UPE won't be competitive unless it is cheaper for two people to take it than a cab.

I live about 10 minutes walking distance to Union and usually travel light (one small suitcase). I am glad to pay $20 for a single ride, compared with making two connections by the TTC . $25 if I have additional luggage (one carry one and one midsized check-in suitcase - that's the most I ever carry).

If it is above $25, I think it is worth it to save the money and lug my suitcases along the way. Not much of a big hassle and have done it plenty of times.

They have to be very careful about pricing. People in midtown, uptown or west of the city are already very unlikely to use it. Not many people like me live within walking distance to Union (or Dundas W for that matter)

 

[ehlow]

I totally agree that the UPE won't be competitive unless it is cheaper for two people to take it than a cab.

I live about 10 minutes walking distance to Union and usually travel light (one small suitcase). I am glad to pay $20 for a single ride, compared with making two connections by the TTC . $25 if I have additional luggage (one carry one and one midsized check-in suitcase - that's the most I ever carry).

If it is above $25, I think it is worth it to save the money and lug my suitcases along the way. Not much of a big hassle and have done it plenty of times.

They have to be very careful about pricing. People in midtown, uptown or west of the city are already very unlikely to use it. Not many people like me live within walking distance to Union (or Dundas W for that matter)

Actually, I live in Midtown and I think I would use it. That article implies that it will be about half of taxi fare, so $25. I can easily take the subway down to Union, then use it.

A. It's half the price of taxi, which is $50-60
B. No need to worry about rush hour traffic

Sure taxi might be faster, but UPX is much cheaper including $3 TTC fare.

 

[pstogios]

Current results of the poll:

$5 to $15 47.34% (347 votes)
$15 to $25 27.15% (199 votes)
This service sounds pointless if you don't live near the TTC 13.1% (96 votes)
$25 to $35 9.28% (68 votes)
I would ride the UP Express no matter the fare cost 3% (23 votes)
Total Votes: 733


LOL -- those 347 voters are dreaming if the fare will be $5-$15. Don't expect anything less than $20, and likely $25.

 

[rbt]

I totally agree that the UPE won't be competitive unless it is cheaper for two people to take it than a cab.

I live about 10 minutes walking distance to Union and usually travel light (one small suitcase). I am glad to pay $20 for a single ride, compared with making two connections by the TTC . $25 if I have additional luggage (one carry one and one midsized check-in suitcase - that's the most I ever carry).

If it is above $25, I think it is worth it to save the money and lug my suitcases along the way. Not much of a big hassle and have done it plenty of times.

They have to be very careful about pricing. People in midtown, uptown or west of the city are already very unlikely to use it. Not many people like me live within walking distance to Union (or Dundas W for that matter)

It doesn't really matter what they charge they will capture a majority of the downtown business visitor just due to corporate policy (train if available due to reliability, cab if not).

Tourists that currently take the bus downtown are also likely to use it just because it's more obvious, even if it costs more.

Locals from downtown and along the way will likely take Georgetown GO Rex service when it becomes available and ignore the express trains entirely. So what average joe local would pay really doesn't matter in the least; they not in general a target user of this service.

 

[pstogios]

FYI the Kitchener GO line doesn't have a stop at the airport.

 

[ksun]

Actually, I live in Midtown and I think I would use it. That article implies that it will be about half of taxi fare, so $25. I can easily take the subway down to Union, then use it.

A. It's half the price of taxi, which is $50-60
B. No need to worry about rush hour traffic

Sure taxi might be faster, but UPX is much cheaper including $3 TTC fare.

For many midtown residents, that includes a bus trip to the subway station, a subway ride and then the UPE.
I think most residents are not within walking distance to a subway station.

It doesn't really matter what they charge they will capture a majority of the downtown business visitor just due to corporate policy (train if available due to reliability, cab if not).

Tourists that currently take the bus downtown are also likely to use it just because it's more obvious, even if it costs more.

Locals from downtown and along the way will likely take Georgetown GO Rex service when it becomes available and ignore the express trains entirely. So what average joe local would pay really doesn't matter in the least; they not in general a target user of this service.

You are being optimistic.
I don't know how many companies have this train first policy. My doesn't. What percentage of business travelers stay right beside Union station? If not, that involves another cab ride. Does that make sense to you?
For visitors, that makes even less sense. Those who are price sensitive will continue take the bus/subway. I don't know what percentage of visitors come to Toronto alone, but those who travel in pairs or groups will still be much better off take the cab. (Again, UPE most likely include another cab ride after Union.)

To say local riders don't matter is wrong.

 

[TOareaFan]

You are being optimistic.
I don't know how many companies have this train first policy. My doesn't.

A common "motherhood" statement in large company travel policies is to maximize cost and time efficiency (words vary but the theme is pretty much universal)....so regular business travellers to Toronto will soon learn that the train is, both, cheaper and faster to get downtown.

What percentage of business travelers stay right beside Union station? If not, that involves another cab ride. Does that make sense to you?

A first question would be, what percentage of business travellers stay overnight at all. A glance at flight schedules of various airlines tell you that there is a lot of business travel between NY/Montreal/Ottawa and Toronto.......a decent percentage of those will be same day trips and the train (if the market acts logically) should attract a very high percentage of those trips...just maximizes time efficiency (assuming, I think safely, a high percentage of those trips are geared towards the core).

Then you have to ask of the trips that will result in some sort of overnight stay....what is the envelope of hotels that are considered walkable from the train station. Certainly that includes the new Delta, the Royal York, the Intercontinental.....to some it will include the Hitlon, Sheraton, Hyatt etc. To some it won't.

Assuming the hotel is the first destination of business travellers (it often isn't) and the visitor is not staying at a walkable hotel your question has to be broken down into this "is it more efficient (time and $) to take a cab from airport directly to hotel or take a train to Union and then a cab to hotel?"

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Current results of the poll:

$5 to $15 47.34% (347 votes)
$15 to $25 27.15% (199 votes)
This service sounds pointless if you don't live near the TTC 13.1% (96 votes)
$25 to $35 9.28% (68 votes)
I would ride the UP Express no matter the fare cost 3% (23 votes)
Total Votes: 733


LOL -- those 347 voters are dreaming if the fare will be $5-$15. Don't expect anything less than $20, and likely $25.

It will be $30, they have to make up the money from this and the parking fees as well.

 

[dowlingm]

I think it's pretty incredible that when Metrolinx are so close to beginning testing that we are still accepting the fact that they will not publish a proposed fare within a reasonably tight range and a business plan. There is a spreadsheet somewhere in Metrolinx with those numbers but clearly it is firewalled from anyone, including the admirable Ms Adkins, who might cause it to be shared. The inference one draws is: the fare is going to be at the high end of the expected range, with or without the GTAA Tax, and they are waiting until the last possible second to say so.

I do have sympathy though since if they do blurt it out, there will be calls from the usual populist suspects for any kind of short sighted cuts that can be done and especially anything deemed "frills". You know, like when platform doors were ripped out of the Spadina Extension design before someone noticed their frames would be partially holding up the roof (and thus a bunch of $ was dropped redesigning the roof rather than admit it was a mistake and reinstate them)

 

[TOareaFan]

^What would the public do with that information if it were available? I am not at all surprised that the pricing (whatever it is) is still being fine tuned...but I am surprised that there seems to be any outrage that we don't know what it is gonna cost to ride this 9 months from now.

 

[robmausser]

First off, the FRA has no jurisdiction on what happens here in Canada.

Second, there are no promises that the FRA will allow non-complaint equipment to run with complaint equipment. All that they have said is that they "will look into it" once the railroads have fully implemented their respective PTC installations.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Yes, but lets be realistic, like almost all policies the USA change, Canada does the same like the smaller little brother that we are.