Toronto Union Park | 303.26m | 58s | Oxford Properties | Pelli Clarke Pelli

[Tuscani01]

I imagine this space being similar to the winter garden at 707 Fifth in Calgary, which isn't that bad of a space to meet up or have lunch in, to be honest.

707 5th Street SW | Real Estate | Manulife Investment Management

www.707fifth.com

Though the building this winter garden is attached to is MUCH nicer than what we are getting here.

 

[Automation Gallery]

The reason is London is an International Global City. Toronto is simply not in that league. Toronto is also overshadowed by New York City and Chicago to a lesser degree and thus there is really no need to go for such extravagance. Toronto does things which are economical and simple. Its mindset is simply not flashy or extravagant and Torontonians simply do not push the architects or developers to go for something more bolder.

Yeah you have a point, but you can say what you want about Toronto doing things more economical and simple and not being an International Global City
but Toronto's infrastructure was not built back in the late 1800s and throughout the early and mid 1900s to have a chance today to be a top tier global city




.

 

[Lenser]

Be great to simply be Toronto and forego the ritual wringing of hands, relentlessly comparing ourselves to other cities around the world.

On the other hand, we'd do well to copy what other cities do in terms of providing comprehensive public transit and a pleasant, workable public domain.

 

[RickyBobby]

The reason is London is an International Global City. Toronto is simply not in that league. Toronto is also overshadowed by New York City and Chicago to a lesser degree and thus there is really no need to go for such extravagance. Toronto does things which are economical and simple. Its mindset is simply not flashy or extravagant and Torontonians simply do not push the architects or developers to go for something more bolder.

Also, our rents are nowhere near what they are in NYC or Toronto. 425 Park in New York is getting $300 PSF from Citadel. The top of CIBC Square is leasing for like $60.

 

[brianyyz]

Pension Funds are not flashy organizations who need to make a return. They are Toronto based pension funds that still carry the old school Toronto Methodist conservatism. Combined they tend to “boring” out.

 

[isaidso]

The reason is London is an International Global City. Toronto is simply not in that league. Toronto is also overshadowed by New York City and Chicago to a lesser degree and thus there is really no need to go for such extravagance. Toronto does things which are economical and simple. Its mindset is simply not flashy or extravagant and Torontonians simply do not push the architects or developers to go for something more bolder.

Your post says more about the cultural tug of war that's occurring. There's the city Toronto is becoming vs. the city Toronto used to be. A large chunk of the population still view design, luxury, HSR, glamour, the performing arts, etc. as frivolous extravagance and vigorously shoot down anything that's not pragmatic and utilitarian. When we do build/demand top shelf they're first to condemn it, cut that tall poppy down, and tell people that aspiring to something more is not for us.

Toronto is becoming that city though.. Many Torontonians are going to get pulled kicking and screaming forward... whether they like it or not. It will take another couple generations but Toronto will become a London.... and hopefully zoom right past them.

 

[ADRM]

Pension Funds are not flashy organizations who need to make a return. They are Toronto based pension funds that still carry the old school Toronto Methodist conservatism. Combined they tend to “boring” out.

Yeah, our pension funds tend to stick to smaller and lower-profile projects such as [checks notes] Hudson Yards...

 

[brianyyz]

Yeah, our pension funds tend to stick to smaller and lower-profile projects such as [checks notes] Hudson Yards...

Never said smaller or lower-profile — just that they only build to the minimum needed. And right now in conservative Methodist Toronto — hopefully like ARDM said, one that will die — the Toronto based pension funds feel this is adequate.

And what works here for then doesn't work in NYC (Hudson Yards), just don’t expect them to build something similar here unless they HAVE to.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Your post says more about the cultural tug of war that's occurring. There's the city Toronto is becoming vs. the city Toronto used to be. A large chunk of the population still view design, luxury, HSR, glamour, the performing arts, etc. as frivolous extravagance and vigorously shoot down anything that's not pragmatic and utilitarian. When we do build/demand top shelf they're first to condemn it, cut that tall poppy down, and tell people that aspiring to something more is not for us.

Toronto is becoming that city though.. Many Torontonians are going to get pulled kicking and screaming forward... whether they like it or not. It will take another couple generations but Toronto will become a London.... and hopefully zoom right past them.

It’s going to take several decades for the transition to be noticeable, but I do find that the architectural quality and public realm of new proposals are gradually improving. We absolutely would never see projects like The One, Union Park, The Well, CIBC Square, M+G, KING Toronto proposed a decade ago. Build a few of those projects every year and perceptions will change substantially over a decade or two. The ugly will be diluted

 

[dahusbandofbath]

Your post says more about the cultural tug of war that's occurring. There's the city Toronto is becoming vs. the city Toronto used to be. A large chunk of the population still view design, luxury, HSR, glamour, the performing arts, etc. as frivolous extravagance and vigorously shoot down anything that's not pragmatic and utilitarian. When we do build/demand top shelf they're first to condemn it, cut that tall poppy down, and tell people that aspiring to something more is not for us.

Toronto is becoming that city though.. Many Torontonians are going to get pulled kicking and screaming forward... whether they like it or not. It will take another couple generations but Toronto will become a London.... and hopefully zoom right past them.

I agree! My dad, born in Brampton in 1941, wouldn’t buy a top-end Oldsmobile after receiving an inheritance in 1989 because he thought it was too pretentious. Now he drives a Lexus. I definitely grew up with that austere Methodist mentality and I can also see that it’s definitely fading.

 

[LUVIT!]

So becoming showy and ostentatious is a sign of a maturing city?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So becoming showy and ostentatious is a sign of a maturing city?

It’s a sign you have a lot of money slushing about the local economy... which I suppose is what people would call a maturing city.

There’s a pretty tight correlation between population, total wealth in a city and architectural quality. It’s no coincidence that the cities regarded as great modern architectural cities are virtually all expensive cities with relatively high populations (north of 4 Million). More money sloshing about = more money to be ostentatious and showy.

A Toronto of 2.5 Million was simply never going to compete with genuinely large, modern cities in architectural output. The buildings look cheap, because they are cheap. Nobody was gonna pay NYC or London rates for Toronto office building, so there’s not the same money to put into architecture.

It’ll be interesting to revisit this conversation when Toronto reaches a population of 4 Million, likely in a decade or two. It’ll be emerging as a genuinely large and wealthy city, with a population about half of NYC’s, roughly the same as Sydney and about the same as Chicago’s during its architectural peak. If Toronto is still building shit like CityPlace at that point, then I’ll conclude that Toronto is just a fundamentally broken city. But until then I’ll just chock it up to size and economics

 

[interchange42]

It’s a sign you have a lot of money slushing about the local economy... which I suppose is what people would call a maturing city.

There’s a pretty tight correlation between population, total wealth in a city and architectural quality. It’s no coincidence that the cities regarded as great modern architectural cities are virtually all expensive cities with relatively high populations (north of 4 Million). More money sloshing about = more money to be ostentatious and showy.

A Toronto of 2.5 Million was simply never going to compete with genuinely large, modern cities in architectural output. The buildings look cheap, because they are cheap. Nobody was gonna pay NYC or London rates for Toronto office building, so there’s not the same money to put into architecture.

It’ll be interesting to revisit this conversation when Toronto reaches a population of 4 Million, likely in a decade or two. It’ll be emerging as a genuinely large and wealthy city, with a population about half of NYC’s, roughly the same as Sydney and about the same as Chicago’s during its architectural peak. If Toronto is still building shit like CityPlace at that point, then I’ll conclude that Toronto is just a fundamentally broken city. But until then I’ll just chock it up to size and economics

Every city, Toronto included, builds a range of building types. There will always be new CityPlaces going up along with the prestige projects: no city can afford to shut out more modest projects, and in fact, the majority projects have to be aimed for the what the majority can afford if they are to stay healthy. Anyone expecting that every project should be spectacular is allowing themselves to be deluded.

42

 

[maestro]

I'm not as optimistic about your theory. Toronto is a much wealthier city than it was 20 years ago and quality has seen modest improvement overall. We continue to use window wall. It's too easy to say it's conservatism from 40 years, The demographic aren't remotely comparable to today. It's disinterest from a lack of competition.

The rates in New York can afford a developer to give the city $250 million to increase the maximum buildable area from 800,000 to 1.6 million square feet but that's about it. Our commercial and residential rates are not cheap. They are many cheaper places building better quality. They are number of Canadian companies headquartered in Toronto leasing space in New York. TD Securities is anchoring One Vanderbilt. That's not filler space. It's about image. It's not needed here.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Every city, Toronto included, builds a range of building types. There will always be new CityPlaces going up along with the prestige projects: no city can afford to shut out more modest projects, and in fact, the majority projects have to be aimed for the what the majority can afford if they are to stay healthy. Anyone expecting that every project should be spectacular is allowing themselves to be deluded.

42

Fair enough. Yeah, I didn't mean that I expected every project to be spectacular. 90% won't be.