Toronto Sugar Wharf Condominiums (Phase 2) | 283.6m | 85s | Menkes | a—A

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Hmmm

Toronto’s first school in a condo was promised for the waterfront. Plans have changed — and parents are not happy​

The Sugar Wharf project by Menkes has been scaled down and the proposed school site shifted from the base of a condo tower to a standalone building.

https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/to...cle_6a1e4ec2-3d17-498a-8bb2-870c1a81fdeb.html

Can't say I feel any sympathy...

 

[DSCToronto]

Can't say I feel any sympathy...

Seems a bit heartless. If one bought a home near a planned school and the schedule slips (by a lot) so that your kids will have 'out-aged' it I think the parents have right to feel disappointed. Yes, I understand why the school in the condo was delayed/cancelled but for people who bought believing what they were told it is clearly a disappointment and I at least feel sympathy for them. I also feel sympathy for those who believed the City and Waterfront Toronto who repeatedly promised "Transit First" for Queen's Quay East from at least 2008 and here we are today with no clear and funded plans to build the LRT extension.

 

[Start Fox]

Also seems to be some new information in that article.

This is news to me:

Phase 2 has also been converted from condos to rental units, according to the city.

Though this quote from later in the article makes it sound like perhaps only one of the buildings has been converted to rental:

Occupancy dates for Phase 2, which includes plans for a rental building connected to the school, are tied to the pending start of construction, said Menkes spokesperson Danny Roth, of Brandon Communications.

Sounds like construction is potentially close(?):

“While we are ready to begin construction, necessary agreements with our municipal and federal partners towards the development of rental housing continue to be negotiated,” he wrote, in response to questions from the Star.

If aiming for 2029/30 then construction probably can't be that far away:

In May 2022, the TDSB estimated the school would open in 2026. A year later, it was forecasting 2028. Now the TDSB is pinning its hopes on 2029.

Hopefully this means there's still potential for some interesting cladding:

Other issues, like the building cladding, are still being determined and are part of an ongoing site plan review, according to the city.

 

[GameOnBrad]

"Phase 2 has also been converted from condos to rental units, according to the city."

Funny, I was talking to a Property Manager a few years ago and we were talking about Condos vs Rentals and I was saying how a lot of these new rental buildings are being built in such a way, that they could easily convert these buildings to condos and sell off the units in the future.

She essentially said to me "You're going to see a lot of these planned condos be changed to rentals. The higher ups are already talking about it and it's not unique to us." (Clarifying: She was talking about pre-construction).

So, this does not surprise me.

 

[DSCToronto]

"Phase 2 has also been converted from condos to rental units, according to the city."

Funny, I was talking to a Property Manager a few years ago and we were talking about Condos vs Rentals and I was saying how a lot of these new rental buildings are being built in such a way, that they could easily convert these buildings to condos and sell off the units in the future.

She essentially said to me "You're going to see a lot of these planned condos be changed to rentals. The higher ups are already talking about it and it's not unique to us."

So, this does not surprise me.

Converting an existing building from rental to condo is not an easy thing to do legally as I assume you first need to have an 'empty building' and then construct a Declaration that identifies the Units and the other things like % of expenses each Unit pays. I suspect that the physical changes required to go from rental to condo are simple to make, the legal hurdles look very complicated to me.

SEE https://www.toronto.ca/city-governm...guide/draft-plan-of-condominium-applications/ of which this is just the start!

 

[GameOnBrad]

Converting an existing building from rental to condo is not an easy thing to do legally as I assume you first need to have an 'empty building' and then construct a Declaration that identifies the Units and the other things like % of expenses each Unit pays. I suspect that the physical changes required to go from rental to condo are simple to make, the legal hurdles look very complicated to me.

I think it has been done before. 30 Gloucester Street comes to mind but I don't know all the details involved (i.e. whether or not it needed to be empty). I had multiple friends of friends renting apartments in there and, apparently, they were given the option to buy the unit they were renting.

I also remember the renos to the building took years but that's because it was an old-school rental building. That said, many of these new buildings are literally built like condos but happen to be rentals (correction: I mean before construction begins). All the meters and such are all in-suite, etc.

 

[DSCToronto]

I think it has been done before. 30 Gloucester Street comes to mind but I don't know all the details involved (i.e. whether or not it needed to be empty). I had multiple friends of friends renting apartments in there and, apparently, they were given the option to buy the unit they were renting.

I also remember the renos to the building took years but that's because it was an old-school rental building. That said, many of these new buildings are literally built like condos but happen to be rentals. All the meters and such are all in-suite, etc.

Of course, it CAN be done but as you can see in the City procedures, it is not a speedy or simple process. Certainly having 'unit metering' for hydro (and sometimes water or gas) makes it easier and it is almost universal now for both new condos and new rentals.

 

[UtakataNoAnnex]

"Phase 2 has also been converted from condos to rental units, according to the city."

Funny, I was talking to a Property Manager a few years ago and we were talking about Condos vs Rentals and I was saying how a lot of these new rental buildings are being built in such a way, that they could easily convert these buildings to condos and sell off the units in the future.

She essentially said to me "You're going to see a lot of these planned condos be changed to rentals. The higher ups are already talking about it and it's not unique to us."

So, this does not surprise me.

I am not dissing your source here, but she may not be aware it's not as simple as turning on a light switch. To be fair though, probably a lot of peeps in that field are not really aware of that either. Most likely due that landlords usually have no intentions of converting their properties into condos.

 

[rdaner]

Great points on conversion. I wonder when they were last updated?

 

[GameOnBrad]

I am not dissing your source here, but she may not be aware it's not as simple as turning on a light switch. To be fair though, probably a lot of peeps in that field are not really aware of that either. Most likely due that landlords usually have no intentions of converting their properties into condos.

Oh, it's all good. I'm pretty hard to offend.

I didn't mean to imply it's "easy" by any means. I believe the property manager meant how much more simple it is to change a condo to a rental "pre-construction" and "pre-sale". I updated that in my original post as a clarification as it could be confusing.

As for new rental buildings to condos. I just mean the way these new rental buildings (the ones with in-suite laundry, in-suite meters, etc) are clearly built in such a way where they could transition them to condos far more easily than much older rental buildings could be. From what I see, living in one right now, they are largely condos in anything but name and what the legal definition is.

Hilariously, I've had a friend over who took a look around and literally said to me "Do you own this place?" I told him that this is a rental building. He hasn't rented in decades and got a good chuckle out of "How far rental buildings have come". Then he asked me all the usual questions, like electricity, water, etc all being metered in-suite, etc. "So it is a condo. Just not sold".

 

[Civdis]

Can the developer not build the building as a condo, register it, and simply own all of the condos, making it a rental building with the flexibility to sell the units in the future?

 

[Collingwoodbuildinglover]

Can the developer not build the building as a condo, register it, and simply own all of the condos, making it a rental building with the flexibility to sell the units in the future?

see i have often wondered that too like could the developer build a tower with they're own funds and manage it as the property manager/landlord with the option that units are able to be sold if not currently under lease kind of like the idea of leasing a car vs finance

 

[Northern Light]

"Phase 2 has also been converted from condos to rental units, according to the city."

Funny, I was talking to a Property Manager a few years ago and we were talking about Condos vs Rentals and I was saying how a lot of these new rental buildings are being built in such a way, that they could easily convert these buildings to condos and sell off the units in the future.

She essentially said to me "You're going to see a lot of these planned condos be changed to rentals. The higher ups are already talking about it and it's not unique to us." (Clarifying: She was talking about pre-construction).

So, this does not surprise me.

Processes for conversion to one side; rental is not being built here without a government incentives package and likely low-interest financing. In exchange for those, the tenure of the units as well as some rent control on some of the units will almost certainly be required.

 

[Northern Light]

Sounds like construction is potentially close(?):


If aiming for 2029/30 then construction probably can't be that far away:


Hopefully this means there's still potential for some interesting cladding:

The TDSB/Menkes had to design a new school from scratch after scrapping the previous plan, so that's a big part of the delays here.

Once ready to go (with permits) a school of this size can easily be delivered in 18 months (should be faster, but it wouldn't be). So if you work backwards and assume an intended delivery by September 2029 The need to start by late 2027; with some wiggle room mid 2027. The could certainly start sooner, but the only logical reason to do so would be a target to be ready for September 2028 and that seems unlikely.

Absent a more ambitious target I wouldn't count on construction before late next year at the earliest.

 

[DSCToronto]

Can the developer not build the building as a condo, register it, and simply own all of the condos, making it a rental building with the flexibility to sell the units in the future?

Of course, but they usually need the $$ from the pre-sales to get bank funding to actually build. In the 'olden days' most buildings were only 40-50% sold when completed. My condo building was built in 1981 - when it was registered the developer still owned almost 35% of the Units. They sold them off over the next 2 years - though they did then go bankrupt!