Mississauga Square One District | ?m | 65s | Oxford Properties | Hariri Pontarini

[sixrings]

No one is going to trundle along on Line 2 for an hour to work at MCC--and any folks who would will soon have a Dundas BRT that can even actually go to MCC. Regional connectivity is poor because Milton Line does not have 2WAD/frequent service (even if it did, Cooksville is 2 km away from MCC), HuLRT is not extended to Kitchener Line, and it will still take 20 minutes to get from Port Credit GO to MCC on the HuLRT.

MCC is just very difficult to serve with good transit. It really is the wrong place for downtown Mississauga to have been built. I fear it will be doomed to be a condo ghetto around a shopping mall. We might have a better chance developing office uses along Hurontario between 403 and Cooksville/Dundas, as it will at least be directly served by HuLRT and somewhat easy transfers from 403 transitway, Dundas BRT, and Lakeshore W GO. All the office we're talking about in this thread next to the 403 is going to be heavily auto-dependent, and that typology is more appealingly located on the 401 (the huge corporate node between Meadowvale and the Airport).

I think only downtown Toronto will ever be able to rely on having a lot of people walk to work for office uses. And that only works because downtown has good transit connections (if there is a partner in the family that works somewhere other than MCC).

The hurontario line makes it so anyone who lives along that line would like to work at sq one if there was an office available.

 

[Northern Light]

How can an office building be built at port credit if the NIMBYs can’t let a 30 floor condo go up. Office floors are much larger than traditional residential floor so I don’t know how anything of substance can be built there.

MTSA. Height is coming to Pt. Credit whether the local like it or not. It will probably be somewhat limited right on Lakeshore, but just to the north, it's coming, in spades.

 

[sixrings]

MTSA. Height is coming to Pt. Credit whether the local like it or not. It will probably be somewhat limited right on Lakeshore, but just to the north, it's coming, in spades.

how many people would be riding the go line versus taking the lrt?

 

[ProjectEnd]

The build cost might not change but the land costs are different. Also if the offices were built within condo developments then the land becomes more or less paid for by the condo development

It's not "paid for" because you still have to construct it, then either sell it for less than a residential use or operate it in perpetuity at a loss. Honestly, even in NYCC, where you are on a subway, and where precisely what you're proposing is part of the NYCSP and is required for density along Yonge, everyone desperately tries to get out out of it because they know it's a killer.

 

[drum118]

MTSA. Height is coming to Pt. Credit whether the local like it or not. It will probably be somewhat limited right on Lakeshore, but just to the north, its coming, in spades.

The way Hurontario has been destroy from the Lakeshore to the QEW with businesses and parking lots for them, you are better off building midrise with a good street edge along it than doing patchwork and leaving it like it is. None of these new buildings should be a towers in a park thing.

Density is a must nor only for PC, but the city as a whole. You can't put density in a few spots as it will never support transit in the first place like it is today.

For those who think no one will ride line 2 and work at MCC are sadly wrong as it been happening for decades as well north of the 401. Have ran into mangers at Sq One who had 9am meetings on Sundays, but couldn't make it as there was no bus service from Islington until 9:30 am compared to what takes place today. You have people who work in the various business north of the 401 off Hurontario or Dixie coming out of Toronto then and now.

At one time the bulk of riders using Islington where from Mississauga to the point before COVID it was almost 50/50 for the 2 cities.

Cost of building an office tower in MCC today is way higher than other locations that still has room with free surface parking lots. There hasn't been a new office tower in MCC over 25 years due to cost to the point 151 city centre has become the Exchange District. 25 floors is the tallest for MCC.

There are 2 14 story plan for the north side of Sq One on City View.

The city and the residents of PC need to wakeup to the fact that tall building are coming to Hurontario and PC because of good rail service that can get people to various parts of the GTA without a need of a car and not stuck in gridlock.

When will we see a taller office tower than 25 story is around the corner and will happen in the next 10 years or so.

Sorry, Oxford vision for Sq One lands is a joke.

how many people would be riding the go line versus taking the lrt?

Getting to the GO Line is a major issue without a car and the LRT is not going to help that much unless you live on the line itself

 

[Deadpool X]

Downtown Toronto is connected by transit from multiple places. There are 7 GO lines radiating in different directions. Line 1 and Line 2 radiating in two more directions each and now there is Ontario line.

Mississauga or any other suburb just can't compare with that. Companies would like to tap talent all over GTA. By having offices in suburbs, their talent pool can shrink considerably. Someone living in Ajax would be okay working in downtown but not Mississauga.

 

[Mercenary]

Downtown Toronto is connected by transit from multiple places. There are 7 GO lines radiating in different directions. Line 1 and Line 2 radiating in two more directions each and now there is Ontario line.

Mississauga or any other suburb just can't compare with that. Companies would like to tap talent all over GTA. By having offices in suburbs, their talent pool can shrink considerably. Someone living in Ajax would be okay working in downtown but not Mississauga.

If the missing Link it built that means Milton Line can get 15 min all day GO Train ridership. Then they re-orient the Milton Line to add another stop at MCC between Erindale and Cooksville. And then they begin service through Mid Town Toronto on the Freight Line and turn Toronto North which is a LCBO station into a proper station.

That rail line will connect Markham to Milton and going through midtown Toronto and Mississauga. This will lead to job growth in Yonge Bloor, Yonge Englinton, MCC and Markham.

 

[sixrings]

There’s 200 million square footage of office space in Toronto. There’s 1 million square footage of office space in Mississauga. Surely 199 million extra square footage isn’t just because there’s a union station. Someone committed to making office space there.

In this thread there’s almost an active effort into explaining why Mississauga can’t have office space than anyone trying to explain how we can gain talent. Maybe we don’t have office space because people who are in charge don’t think it’s a priority. Just like why we don’t have proper transit. We don’t think it’s a priority. Maybe the people at top should reevaluate their priorities. If you are in charge with the mind set that Mississauga is a bed room community then you make decisions that fill those expectations.

 

[taal]

Do you see many new office proposals in Toronto anymore ? No. As other have stated the office market has fundamentally changed, maybe that's a short term thing, maybe a longer term thing that will take years of office space absorption and growth (e.g. assume going forward existing companies only need 50% of their current space, imagine all the growth required to back fill before you see new development proposals).

 

[mandy_CN]

Downtown Toronto is connected by transit from multiple places. There are 7 GO lines radiating in different directions. Line 1 and Line 2 radiating in two more directions each and now there is Ontario line.

Mississauga or any other suburb just can't compare with that. Companies would like to tap talent all over GTA. By having offices in suburbs, their talent pool can shrink considerably. Someone living in Ajax would be okay working in downtown but not Mississauga.

Mississauga has a LOT of potential. I mean, if Toronto has to be a Grade A Megacity, Its suburbs have to develop into proper satellite cities themselves. That is the only way of creating a proper mega region. If Toronto gets the huge headquarters, then Mississauga could get the operation parks, Waterloo-Kitchener could invest in IT parks, While Brampton could delve into heavy manufacturing. That is the only way for a city with global ambitions to grow.
This is how large cities work. New York has Jersey City and Newark, Delhi has Gurgaon and NOIDA and in the same way, Toronto could have Mississauga...

 

[ProjectEnd]

There’s 200 million square footage of office space in Toronto. There’s 1 million square footage of office space in Mississauga. Surely 199 million extra square footage isn’t just because there’s a union station. Someone committed to making office space there.

In this thread there’s almost an active effort into explaining why Mississauga can’t have office space than anyone trying to explain how we can gain talent. Maybe we don’t have office space because people who are in charge don’t think it’s a priority. Just like why we don’t have proper transit. We don’t think it’s a priority. Maybe the people at top should reevaluate their priorities. If you are in charge with the mind set that Mississauga is a bed room community then you make decisions that fill those expectations.

That's great, but development is about financials, not 'hopes and dreams'. In that vein:

It's not that anyone isn't 'optimistic', there just a required does of realism there too. It doesn't cost any less to build an office building in Mississauga, but the rents could be between a third to half as much as in Toronto and the prospective tenant base is far less as well. So why would you?

Mentioned earlier was The Airport node which is essentially the only place where new office has happened in Mississauga in the last decade. Spectrum Square (1.1M sf) was announced in 2011, yet by 2023 all we have are two, 130K sf, midrise buildings and some pad retail. It's not nothing, for sure, but it's also not...a lot. It also features a boatload of parking and really isn't the kind of offering anyone would want to see in a 'downtown' like the Square One area.

 

[afransen]

Mississauga has a LOT of potential. I mean, if Toronto has to be a Grade A Megacity, Its suburbs have to develop into proper satellite cities themselves. That is the only way of creating a proper mega region. If Toronto gets the huge headquarters, then Mississauga could get the operation parks, Waterloo-Kitchener could invest in IT parks, While Brampton could delve into heavy manufacturing. That is the only way for a city with global ambitions to grow.
This is how large cities work. New York has Jersey City and Newark, Delhi has Gurgaon and NOIDA and in the same way, Toronto could have Mississauga...

You need to make it a marketable location. You can't make an urban office node that is car dependent. It just doesn't work. Which means it needs strong regional transit connectivity, which MCC does not have and is not really planned to have. It was an urban planning failure. Maybe we'll fix it, but not without massive transit investment (a diversion from the Milton line would be very expensive but could help make it happen).

 

[sixrings]

That's great, but development is about financials, not 'hopes and dreams'. In that vein:

Mentioned earlier was The Airport node which is essentially the only place where new office has happened in Mississauga in the last decade. Spectrum Square (1.1M sf) was announced in 2011, yet by 2023 all we have are two, 130K sf, midrise buildings and some pad retail. It's not nothing, for sure, but it's also not...a lot. It also features a boatload of parking and really isn't the kind of offering anyone would want to see in a 'downtown' like the Square One area.

You need to make it a marketable location. You can't make an urban office node that is car dependent. It just doesn't work. Which means it needs strong regional transit connectivity, which MCC does not have and is not really planned to have. It was an urban planning failure. Maybe we'll fix it, but not without massive transit investment (a diversion from the Milton line would be very expensive but could help make it happen).

MCC still sits in very close proximity to the airport, has good 403 access, and soon a LRT access. It isn't exactly no mans land. But sure lets either move the GO line or add a Subway line if thats what's needed.

 

[afransen]

Amusingly, I took a look at Mississauga MTSA assessment from a couple years ago, and the only MTSA where they decided it just was not possible to achieve the density targets and nothing should change is Mineola, just north of Port Credit GO, which is the confluence of the soon to be completed HuLRT, soon to be electrified frequent Lakeshore W GO and easy access to QEW. That is a much more logical place to try to jam a dense office node. Ask the City of Mississauga? Not a single low rise SFH to be touched. Impossible! Of course, this has nothing to do with the wealth and influence of the residents in the area.

MCC still sits in very close proximity to the airport, has good 403 access, and soon a LRT access. It isn't exactly no mans land. But sure lets either move the GO line or add a Subway line if thats what's needed.

I don't think that cuts it as strong transit connectivity. North York Centre is on Line 1 and Line 4 near the 401 and not very popular as an office node.

 

[ProjectEnd]

MCC still sits in very close proximity to the airport, has good 403 access, and soon a LRT access. It isn't exactly no mans land. But sure lets either move the GO line or add a Subway line if thats what's needed.

Let me put it to you this way: When The Well was leasing, it was a slow burn because prospective tenants thought that was too far out...

The Toronto / GTA markets are unique. What you're describing actually does happen quite a bit in the Lower Mainland around Vancouver, but we just don't have the same market here. I hate to sound soul crushing because I wish we did have that kind of dispersion around the various sub-markets, but we just don't.