EnviroTO
Senior Member
That has been there for weeks. Still waiting for the last two stations to be revealed (Finch West and Vaughan Centre).
Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group
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Dan416
Senior Member
Just because you say something doesn't make it so. Look up the word "redundant" please and explain to me how a subway to MCC is made redundant by more train service along GO's Milton line which doesn't serve MCC?
Second_in_pie
Senior Member
Actually, I agree with kettal. If you want it to go to MCC, why don't you just you know... put it to MCC? If you can build a subway to MCC off the rail corridor, you can build regional rail off the rail corridor to MCC. In fact, the Milton line does have a fair bit of realignment opportunity.
The Milton line's going to get regional service anyways, so why build as subway when there's another corridor in basically the same place, basically mirroring the exact same route, with basically the exact same service? The only difference is that the Milton Line is already there. I'm really not seeing any true reasoning behind this, it's just a "let's build subway to show we're like Toronto." I totally agree with a subway along Hurontario. The corridor up to Eglinton has a lot of existing density and ridership, and a northward extension would be cheap and goes through land that could easily be developed. But a subway along Dundas, again as long as it's not a local service like the B-D, really is pretty much 100% redundant. And I see absolutely no reason for making the subway a real local service instead of a regional service with the exact same stops as the Milton line. Maybe if Dundas has serious, big plans for redevelopment, then a local subway would make sense. But it doesn't.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Yeah, exactly.
Hurontario is the busiest bus corridor in Mississauga, and there is no rail mainline that runs along it, or even close to it. Dundas is only 2-nd or 3-rd busiest, and does have a parallel rail line, which is being considered for electrified express service anyway.
So, why not build subway under Hurontario, and use mainline rail for Dundas, with a short tunneled diversion to MCC?
hbl33
Active Member
Originally I supported B+D expansion to MCC. without knowing its own future transit upgrade in Sauga. But now I can only agree if DRL has been accepted by City of Toronto. If York gains two accesses to subways, why isn't Sauga getting one?
1. GO transit is the fastest way of commute from those in Sauga (even in Dixie) to Kipling. Placing stations along Central Parkway, Edenhurst (who even suggested that?), Cawthra, Dixie still would not help TTC enough in collecting fares. TTC subway stocks are slower than GO rolling stocks as well, even its ancient locomotives.
2. This would contravene the proposed Dundas LRT, which is to have the similar effect as those of TC. Adding a subway to SQ1 would reverse the possible intensification along Dundas St E. strips.
3. TTC Subway is meant for the efficient connection from A to Z within City of Toronto. Extending to Sauga (which is technically an established city) would be a financial kamikaze, and service havoc. Who in Toronto (other than daily commuting workers/students) is going to Sauga for shopping? Not too many. If so, they do by a car. Its a reality. The most logical way to get there is Get On the GO.
4. Sauga is already intensifying slowly. And this is not owed to the transit upgrades like subways or LRTS.
5. Besides short extension to V'han and Rich Hill, I can hardly see TTC planning any expansion for a subway. Original Eglinton West Subway (killed and replaced by Eglinton-Crosstown LRT), Queen St. Subway and even proposed DRL are all forgotten by City officials, so what is the point of begging them to expand B+D to MCC? They will always whine "it is too expensive".
Even as a fan of SOS or any future subway development, I can't agree to something that might be fruitless, overlapping and cost-ineffective subway expansion to MCC. Unless the point #5. is upturned by politicians who actually got cojones to declare megillah TTC transformation (not just Transit City or short subway to York Region).
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billonlogan
Active Member
Dom Greg Sorbara.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
Jesus tap dancing Christ if our planners actually think like that we are doomed. Spending 1b up front to save 5m/year down the road is idiotic no matter what kind of jurisdictional voodoo you implement. One way or another some government will pay for it, and 20 years from now when the province is choking under the debt load of this and can't bail out Mayor Giambrone that'll be clear enough.
EDIT: I frankly doubt there is much difference in maintenance costs between above ground/under ground to start with. Underground facilities are at greater risk of groundwater and are more epxensive to maintain. It's not like were CHUDs, most of our buildings are above ground and 99% of them seem to be in better shape than TTC subway stations and cost less to operate.
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rbt
Senior Member
This is an very common practice amongst business and we keep encouraging our government to act more like a business.
Even on this board we actively criticize government actions compared to private business (comparing dollars typically) without doing a full cost accounting of both to consider indirect expenses.
If the population cannot consider that indirect expenses may exist, the government is foolish to spend money trying to quantify what they might be as it is a good way to get booted out of office. Heck, we bitch about how long EA's take today, imagine if they took 50% longer to do this kind of accounting?
Whoaccio
Senior Member
Dan416
Senior Member
1. GO transit doesn't serve intra-Mississauga trips.
2. How would a subway along Dundas make it less intensified than an LRT? That's just LRTista talk.
3. If the TTC subway is just meant for travel within Toronto, why is it serving Vaughan and Richmond Hill? And since when does an arbitrary boundary like Steeles or Etobicoke Creek delineate people's travel needs?
4. It's Mississauga, not "Sauga", no one in Mississauga calls it that. And to address your point, Sheppard is intensifying due to the anticipated subway which is now for all intents and purposes canned by the current administration in Toronto City Hall. Mississauga, especially along Dundas, would see lots of redevelopment of the Dundas St strip plazas if it got a subway, even if it was nodal rather than continuous development.
5. The lack of political will for subway is the whole point of SOS. SOS is a cry for help. SOS is a cry to save Toronto's subways from extinction. If something isn't growing, it is dying. If the SRT is replaced with LRT, then our rapid transit network will have shrunk and will end at Kennedy forever. Subway expansion should be keeping up with growth in the region, but it hasn't, not by a long shot. If Mississauga wants an extension it should pay for it. Just like York Region has. Toronto would only have to extend it to East Mall and Sherway.
Last point, but the extension to MCC being on the SOS plan isn't negotiable.
Rainforest
Senior Member
The speed won't change, as S-LRT will still run in fully segregated ROW and at the same speed as SRT. In fact, the rapid transit network will be extended, as the fully segregated ROW will be extended from McCowan to at least Sheppard and Progress.
What will remain is the transfer at Kennedy, which is a nuisance for many riders.
hbl33
Active Member
GO is a regional transit system, not a competitor of local transit such as MT.
Subway does more intensification than LRT, but then face it, it is not going to happen here. I was just trying to get an attention that B+D extension to MCC is unlikely going to happen ever again.
York Region is a special exception, because most of the major services serve existing TTC stations and terminals. A subway between T.O. and York is a win-win because it relieves the congestion along major roads from York to Toronto while allowing TTC to replace ineffective bus routes to York Region with the major subway stations. In addition, travel direction from Richmond Hill to Finch Station is linear and Spadina extension to VCC is easier because of lack of complex developments along its planned route structure.
MT lacks co-operation with TTC, and unless the transfer between the two was easy as YRT-TTC, its not gonna happen. Square One to nearest TTC station isn't linear and using CP tracks to get to Kipling will take major impact along Milton Line.
Obviously you haven't seen the youth here usually addressing the city name "Sauga". As for me, I can't help it because I'm a lazy typist. But all right, I'll correct it for sakes.
Sheppard would have deserved its full length of subway from start to finish, but its too bad that politicos in Toronto didn't smarten up about finishing the subway. And in upcoming generation, Sheppard East might be redeveloped as Bloor streetcar to a subway...
Apart from reality of construction issues and political messes in T.O, I would not object the extension of B+D to MCC.
Just by reading this response SOS seems like a fantasy story than actual alternative against the not-too-credible TransHype City. It lacks the flair of strong demand, such as protest at City Hall, or other extreme actions. Or nag the "ALMIGHTY McCallion", who isn't interested in sharing the possible opportunities what can subway would bring. Of course, if the City decided to go with subway expansion, Mississauga is going into debt for first time. Unless cooperation with TTC could be done in many other ways such as fare integration, which would minimize the risk while allowing service expansion.
I have to admit that SOS plan is concrete in planning, but weak in support from the general public perception.
Dan416
Senior Member
Did I not just say that?
Subways in general are pretty absent from TTC or Metrolinx plans.
TTC for Torontonians. Except in special exceptions such as York Region. Right.
Somehow a subway to York Region is win-win, whereas a subway to Mississauga is what, lose-lose? Improving convenience is somehow bad?
Because there's nothing at VCC it's easier to build there? That's a reason to expand the subway there? Are you fucking kidding me?
You do realize subways go underground right? They don't have to travel under a particular street. Which means, if you really wanted to, the path from the nearest TTC station to MCC could be linear. You draw a line from point A to point B and boom, a linear line. I'm not saying it's ideal, but it's possible. However, the general consensus is a Dundas alignment, as it's a major transit route and ripe for redevelopment.
Well I'm 27, so no I am not too familiar with the "youth". But I was young once, and we never called it that. I can only speak to my experiences though. It's usually TO people who call it Sauga.
The problem with that parallel is that Bloor was built much longer initially than the current Sheppard. Sheppard as it is, isn't long enough to divert enough ridership from parallel routes. There's no benefit to switching to such a short line. So while Sheppard's ridership has grown over the years, it hasn't been nearly as much as it would had Sheppard been built fully (e.g. to Vic Park) and on to STC. A streetcar along Sheppard East will only make it make less sense to invest in lengthening the subway line when a streetcar was just constructed.
It's hard to get the public riled up on something, especially transit. If you have any ideas for getting noticed in the media, SOS would appreciate it.
rbt
Senior Member
Not another department; and I've seen major corps do that too (middle management gets a bonus on their own budget, not the other guys); but other companies/entities entirely. An externalized cost is one that is incurred outside your own balance sheet.
If you can spend $100 of Dump Co's money to save $5 of your own (Manufacturing Co.); then they certainly do.
Moving something from the TTCs books onto the provinces is a good move for the TTC which has significant issues covering operations expenses.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
I think most people understand that having the province spend a billion dollars to let the TTC save a few million p.a. is stupid in so many ways. I'm just having a tough time figuring out if you are actually saying it's a good idea or being argumentative.
In any case, all residents of Toronto are residents of Ontario(i.e. all "owners" of Toronto are "owners" of Ontario as well). Even allowing for the diluted equity (i.e. voting) base (Toronto = ~20% of Ontario), Torontonians would still be worse off by spending 1000m at the provincial level just to save 5m at the local level, essentially spending 200m to save 5m. Never mind the other 80% of the Province would be spending 800m to get nothing. In other words it's an idiotic move that should be obvious to everyone but the TTC.