Toronto Spadina Subway Extension Emergency Exits | ?m | 1s | TTC | IBI Group

[Second_in_pie]

Oh, I think the underground line is a benefit in that it swallows some of the cost for future development. But really, why do we need a station here in the present? Why not just build a hole for a station until the development comes, instead of overbuilding for the present? It's just a total waste of funds. Let's just put this in perspective; Eglinton wil go without a subway for the forseeable future (LRT is just a poor stop gap), we desperately need a DRL, the Sheppard Line/Scarborough RT need extensions to places that aren't the middle of nowhere, and the TTC is facing fare hikes to pay for a projected $100 million loss. And yet, somehow, amongst all this, we manage to spend $140 million dollars on a subway station that really is in the middle of nowhere. I don't even think the most optimistic estimates for daily use are in the tens of thousands, and those people could just as easily go to one of the other stations for the time being (these so called 'riders' have cars), while the TTC manages to control its waste.

You know, really, $140 million won't build you a subway line, but at the end of the day, these costs add up. Poor management decisions like these are why the TTC is in debt. A subway extension up North to York makes sense - but for the time being there just isn't the density to support a subway North of Steeles (however much I want to get to Vaughan Mills/Canada's Wonderland without a car). We shouldn't be building this part of the line until at least the end of the next decade, when this area starts to mature.

I totally agree with this. There's a few things I'd like to nitpick though, if you don't mind

First of all, the entire Downsview area, I can see getting development. Lots of it. If you look at Sheppard and Allen right now, you might find that there's a lot of development going on currently. That said, I can never see Jane and Steeles-407 getting anything. Ever. There's just nothing going for it, even if there was a gold plated subway to downtown.

Which brings me to #2: VCC. As far as any belief that VCC (or VMC, whatever you,) will be an utter failure due to Vaughan's past growth strategy, I don't think so. It's not like people in Vaughan are going to be moving to VCC; it's supposed to be a high density downtown-like district, complete with condos and office towers. I think that definitely needs subway. But plans haven't been finalized yet, I'm not even sure if they have the developers up, and work definitely isn't going to start for 3 years. That means nothing's going to be finished for at least 5, and probably nothing notable for 10. I absolutely agree that the York U-VCC extension should be put on hold (Steeles West included) until we can get a definite timeframe on VCC. That still allows Viva Purple to have a solid route (currently it goes to York U, so it could go to York U and come back up Orange's route,) and it provides the needed service to York U.

3rd, I'm not so sure about (ever) reaching Canada's Wonderland, but the area definitely needs to mature before subway hits it. Maybe 50 years down the road, the current Jane suburban office park stretch will turn into a solid 10 story row of midrise offices, then a subway could make sense. I doubt it, and it's definitely not what I'd like for the region. And even if, the Jane LRT would probably be better for shuttling people to VCC and the Subway and Viva. Actually, by the time that warrants a subway, we'll already have a Jane-McCowan subway on Highway 7

 

[newuser2k9]

I totally agree with this. There's a few things I'd like to nitpick though, if you don't mind

First of all, the entire Downsview area, I can see getting development. Lots of it. If you look at Sheppard and Allen right now, you might find that there's a lot of development going on currently. That said, I can never see Jane and Steeles-407 getting anything. Ever. There's just nothing going for it, even if there was a gold plated subway to downtown.

Which brings me to #2: VCC. As far as any belief that VCC (or VMC, whatever you,) will be an utter failure due to Vaughan's past growth strategy, I don't think so. It's not like people in Vaughan are going to be moving to VCC; it's supposed to be a high density downtown-like district, complete with condos and office towers. I think that definitely needs subway. But plans haven't been finalized yet, I'm not even sure if they have the developers up, and work definitely isn't going to start for 3 years. That means nothing's going to be finished for at least 5, and probably nothing notable for 10. I absolutely agree that the York U-VCC extension should be put on hold (Steeles West included) until we can get a definite timeframe on VCC. That still allows Viva Purple to have a solid route (currently it goes to York U, so it could go to York U and come back up Orange's route,) and it provides the needed service to York U.

3rd, I'm not so sure about (ever) reaching Canada's Wonderland, but the area definitely needs to mature before subway hits it. Maybe 50 years down the road, the current Jane suburban office park stretch will turn into a solid 10 story row of midrise offices, then a subway could make sense. I doubt it, and it's definitely not what I'd like for the region. And even if, the Jane LRT would probably be better for shuttling people to VCC and the Subway and Viva. Actually, by the time that warrants a subway, we'll already have a Jane-McCowan subway on Highway 7

Well, you definitely have some points. What I don't think will happen is this predictided major growth you imagine for VCC. For sure I could see some of the plan coming to shape, but the area for this development is massive. There's just been so much growth up along Highway 7 in particular, and for sure more will be realized, but what about after that? One can't help but feel regret that there is no comprehensive plan for Markham, Vaughan, and Richmond Hill. This will be a population centre on scales much larger than NYCC or MCC when developed to the same density. Public transit has to be more than just a solitary subway station, it has to be a complete system.

 

[Edward Skira]

Finch had little density when the Yonge subway reached there in 1974. In fact most of everything north and west of Yonge and Steeles was still farmland in 1974. I wouldn't go to Wonderland but VCC is perfectly fine. And most of the land at Jane and 7 is already owned by developers just waiting to build upwards.

 

[unimaginative2]

What it comes down to is that this station should be built when the 407 Transitway is opened. From what seems to be going on with the transitway EA, they should open more or less simultaneously. If the transitway is delayed for some reason, the station should be roughed in but not opened until it is. There's no point in stopping at a station for a parking lot that would have a capital cost of roughly $250,000 a space.

Finch had little density when the Yonge subway reached there in 1974. In fact most of everything north and west of Yonge and Steeles was still farmland in 1974. I wouldn't go to Wonderland but VCC is perfectly fine. And most of the land at Jane and 7 is already owned by developers just waiting to build upwards.

Exactly. And best of all, these new developments will be built around rapid transit rather than the other way around.

 

[officedweller]

The problem here is that the line is deep underground through empty fields and hydro corridors. It makes absolutely no sense. The entire York/VCC extension should have been elevated except for a brief segment in the York campus and perhaps at VCC itself.

That's basically what I was thinking - it only needs to be underground in areas already built-up.
The built form of new developments can deal with an elevated line in the area.
Many other cities have elevated subways.
In terms of winter operation, the Allen Road portion is already exposed to the elements.

 

[newuser2k9]

That's basically what I was thinking - it only needs to be underground in areas already built-up.
The built form of new developments can deal with an elevated line in the area.
Many other cities have elevated subways.
In terms of winter operation, the Allen Road portion is already exposed to the elements.

Wouldn't it be quite costly to cross the 407? Also, wouldn't continuing a tunnel be more efficient than 3 or 4 transitions? Those might be deciding factors for cost/value.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Well, you definitely have some points. What I don't think will happen is this predictided major growth you imagine for VCC.

Well it wouldn't be massive. On the scale of Markham Town Centre or maybe even a bit smaller. Of course, the area could (and probably will) grow further down the road in all VCC, RHC and MTC, but I think that a modest downtown-like development is a good start. But this won't get finished for at least 10 years, so I don't feel that getting a subway there is a big priority. Finish it at York U now, and then once construction starts at VCC, start the extension.

Well, you definitely have some points. What I don't think will happen is this predictided major growth you imagine for VCC. For sure I could see some of the plan coming to shape, but the area for this development is massive. There's just been so much growth up along Highway 7 in particular, and for sure more will be realized, but what about after that? One can't help but feel regret that there is no comprehensive plan for Markham, Vaughan, and Richmond Hill. This will be a population centre on scales much larger than NYCC or MCC when developed to the same density. Public transit has to be more than just a solitary subway station, it has to be a complete system.

Yep, there definitely needs to be a lot more planning in the entire region. How can we create a node here, population centre, business centre, downtown district, etc. But I don't think this is for this thread. If nobody else is going to, I think I'll make or revive a thread about Greenbelt/Places to Grow/Growth strategies/plans/fantasies.

 

[newuser2k9]

Well it wouldn't be massive. On the scale of Markham Town Centre or maybe even a bit smaller. Of course, the area could (and probably will) grow further down the road in all VCC, RHC and MTC, but I think that a modest downtown-like development is a good start. But this won't get finished for at least 10 years, so I don't feel that getting a subway there is a big priority. Finish it at York U now, and then once construction starts at VCC, start the extension.

Yep, there definitely needs to be a lot more planning in the entire region. How can we create a node here, population centre, business centre, downtown district, etc. But I don't think this is for this thread. If nobody else is going to, I think I'll make or revive a thread about Greenbelt/Places to Grow/Growth strategies/plans/fantasies.

VCC is 1.5 times the size of Markham Centre in terms of area. I think the statistics on employment/residences only inludes initial development. Also, Sheppard East Subway Station makes sense now because it serves the northern end of York (as well as the nearby residential). It would make the University a whole lot attractive from a commuter standpoint to have both.

 

[Paleo]

Oh, I think the underground line is a benefit in that it swallows some of the cost for future development. But really, why do we need a station here in the present? Why not just build a hole for a station until the development comes, instead of overbuilding for the present? It's just a total waste of funds. Let's just put this in perspective; Eglinton wil go without a subway for the forseeable future (LRT is just a poor stop gap), we desperately need a DRL, the Sheppard Line/Scarborough RT need extensions to places that aren't the middle of nowhere, and the TTC is facing fare hikes to pay for a projected $100 million loss. And yet, somehow, amongst all this, we manage to spend $140 million dollars on a subway station that really is in the middle of nowhere. I don't even think the most optimistic estimates for daily use are in the tens of thousands, and those people could just as easily go to one of the other stations for the time being (these so called 'riders' have cars), while the TTC manages to control its waste.

You know, really, $140 million won't build you a subway line, but at the end of the day, these costs add up. Poor management decisions like these are why the TTC is in debt. A subway extension up North to York makes sense - but for the time being there just isn't the density to support a subway North of Steeles (however much I want to get to Vaughan Mills/Canada's Wonderland without a car). We shouldn't be building this part of the line until at least the end of the next decade, when this area starts to mature.

You forgot the $14 million annual net operating loss for this extension when it opens. At least people in the region will be able to reach Vaughan's new city hall via this new subway.

 

[Dan416]

Finch had little density when the Yonge subway reached there in 1974. In fact most of everything north and west of Yonge and Steeles was still farmland in 1974. I wouldn't go to Wonderland but VCC is perfectly fine. And most of the land at Jane and 7 is already owned by developers just waiting to build upwards.

Which begs the question why MCC doesn't deserve a subway line when it's already far more developed than Finch in 1974, or Vaughan Corporate Centre in 2014.

 

[Ansem]

Which begs the question why MCC doesn't deserve a subway line when it's already far more developed than Finch in 1974, or Vaughan Corporate Centre in 2014.

We should ask Hazel that question...

 

[nfitz]

The simple answer is that it doesn't deserve one, because it doesn't want one, and hasn't asked for one.

(though the extension to VCC and Finch has a lot more to them being only one major road past where the subway was going to go anyway).

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Which brings me to #2: VCC. As far as any belief that VCC (or VMC, whatever you,) will be an utter failure due to Vaughan's past growth strategy, I don't think so. It's not like people in Vaughan are going to be moving to VCC; it's supposed to be a high density downtown-like district, complete with condos and office towers. I think that definitely needs subway. But plans haven't been finalized yet, I'm not even sure if they have the developers up, and work definitely isn't going to start for 3 years. That means nothing's going to be finished for at least 5, and probably nothing notable for 10. I absolutely agree that the York U-VCC extension should be put on hold (Steeles West included) until we can get a definite timeframe on VCC.

I would heartily concur there is reason to be skeptical about VMC and while it's true that plans haven't been finalized, the wheels are definitely in motion.

There's been a lot in the news about how Toromont is leaving Jane/7 for Bradford because of this. At least one major high-density project has been approved for the block between Jane and Creditstone. I forget the developer but it was six towers, mostly up in the 30s.

Since the subway won't be open for 5+ years, I don't see any problem with development being delayed. Au contraire, the idea is to have transit there on Day One so people don't buy cars when they move in. Once they have those cars in the driveway, the likelihood of them buying into the whole 'transit oriented development' thing drops.

Also, Solmar is also trying to squeeze out a few towers further north, by Vaughan Mills and if we know anything about Vaughan we should know more will follow soon. The developers are just waiting for the moment to strike. As it is, the city is obligated to intensify those lands under Places to Grow (and, by extension, their own official plan). It's a more likely scenario than Yonge/Finch would have been in 1974.

Even without the 407 Transitway, Viva is running along Hwy 7 so stopping the line at Steeles (either on Yonge or at Spadina) strikes me as a bit pointless.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Since the subway won't be open for 5+ years, I don't see any problem with development being delayed. Au contraire, the idea is to have transit there on Day One so people don't buy cars when they move in. Once they have those cars in the driveway, the likelihood of them buying into the whole 'transit oriented development' thing drops.

Actually, that's a good point. Just as long as things start getting finished within 5 years of the subway being finished, it makes sense to not put the extension on hold.

Also, Solmar is also trying to squeeze out a few towers further north, by Vaughan Mills and if we know anything about Vaughan we should know more will follow soon. The developers are just waiting for the moment to strike. As it is, the city is obligated to intensify those lands under Places to Grow (and, by extension, their own official plan). It's a more likely scenario than Yonge/Finch would have been in 1974.

Even without the 407 Transitway, Viva is running along Hwy 7 so stopping the line at Steeles (either on Yonge or at Spadina) strikes me as a bit pointless.

Yes, I've seen those. Here's hoping they can get a high-density foothold in the area, as the towers actually look really cool right now.

I never said the subway should stop at Steeles, I said it should stop at York U. However, I now see that it really does make a lot of sense to just build the whole thing. Hooking up with Viva is good enough on it's own, and if high density development is coming within 5 years of subway completion, I don't see why not to build it.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

VCC is 1.5 times the size of Markham Centre in terms of area. I think the statistics on employment/residences only inludes initial development. Also, Sheppard East Subway Station makes sense now because it serves the northern end of York (as well as the nearby residential). It would make the University a whole lot attractive from a commuter standpoint to have both.

VCC is nowhere near the size of Markham Centre. Perhaps you're thinking of Downtown Markham, which is just the master-planned area bounded by Warden/407/GO/Rouge River, though this is still larger than VCC. Markham Centre is far bigger, stretching from the 407 to north of Hwy 7, and basically from Kennedy to Rodick.

And do you mean Steeles West instead of Sheppard East? Steeles West makes sense because York doesn't want a hundred buses an hour looping around the campus. It's also close to Jane and the 407 and has room for parking, which is good for commuters and passengers. The questionable segment is just the final 2km...but without this segment, the line wouldn't have been extended at all. It was all or nothing. Considering what's envisioned for VCC and for the funding windfall it helped secure, this 2km is not unreasonable. The people that think this last 2km stretch is unreasonable tend to either see every dollar not spent on LRT and/or every dollar spent outside the 416 as a waste.

You forgot the $14 million annual net operating loss for this extension when it opens. At least people in the region will be able to reach Vaughan's new city hall via this new subway.

You forgot that everything has operating losses. It'll take money to move 100,000 people a day. We could build an express bus somewhere and only lose $1.4M per year, but we'd only be serving 10,000 riders a day. What Toronto could really use is the means to lose $140M per year to support another 1,000,000 riders a day.