Toronto Southcore Financial Centre & Delta Toronto | 159.71m | 45s | GWL | KPMB

I wonder if it had something to do with sales for Ice. Maybe they were worried about scaring off prospective purchasers, so they wanted to make the office component sound like something that would happen one day, far, far, far down the the road. Plus, an office development on that site won't seem as obtrusive later, once the building is basically hemmed in on all sides anyway.

If I bought a unit that faced the office tower I would much prefer that it be built or near completion on my closing date; rather than have to put up with construction and a crane in my view. Then there's those who would fight to retain those views that they have gotten used to.

Seems just easier (providing the financing is there) to build concurrently and be done with it. No fuss no muss
 
Why would bcIMC care about Ice? Different developers.

Anything that I've read implies that the office tower is being built. It doesn't make sense to cap at grade - the PATH connection is on the second floor, sans second floor connection the Delta Hotel will be isolated from the PwC tower. (I could see them capping at the second floor... but again all press releases imply that the tower is being constructed).
 
That's not really a fair statement, to my knowledge, and I'm fairly confident about this. The office component of ice was never taken to the market, they didn't even try. In other words there were no plans to get it going at the same time i.e. it's not on hold per say.

It's possible the developer will simply off load the site.

Now as a counter example, I can say with certainty projects like Bay Adelaide East 2 (i.e. the next office tower) are indeed being actively marketed.

The office component of Ice is currently shopping for tenants.
 
from today
20111203033.jpg
 
wow. i had no idea progress had been so fast.. WOW was this a fast excavation.. (when did this thing start again?.. maybe it just seems fast). you can even see the slant/angled south side of the delta!
 
Taken today. You can see the seperation between sites in the 2nd picture. Nothing happening with the Bremner Tower at the moment.

DELTA-SOUTHCORE-26-12-2011.jpg


DELTA-SOUTHCORE-26-12-2011-2.jpg
 
They still need to build the parking levels, even if they cap the office tower.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions at this time.

I agree, i would be very surprised if they were not going ahead with the Bremner Tower, considering how low the Toronto Vacancy rate is....National Average Shows Significant Decline in Office Vacancy in 2011
Strongest Demand Seen in Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal, and St. John's


Toronto
Leasing demand for all classes of office space in Toronto's central market remained very active this quarter. Office vacancy for all classes declined from 5.0% in Q3 to 4.7% in Q4 2011; with the Class A market declining to 4.5%.

"Given the low vacancy environment, we are seeing upward pressure on rental rates going in to 2012 and the likelihood that new office developments will be announced in 2012," says Paul Morse, Senior Managing Director, Office Leasing, C&W Canada. "We need new office buildings downtown to alleviate the pent up demand and create additional supply of modern and functional office space."

Suburban market leasing activity also picked up in Q4 2011 as major tenants in the insurance and engineering sectors committed to additional space in Mississauga and Meadowvale. First Gulf has been particularly successful with its Meadowvale project this quarter as has HOOPP's Aerocentre development in Mississauga.

Year-to-date absorption in the suburbs will come in close to 850,000 SF, representing a very active year and huge increase in activity compared to 2010, and the overall suburban vacancy rate will end the year at 8.4%.

"Leasing and development activity in the suburbs showed signs of improvement this year, which is a welcome turn of events from this time last year," says Morse
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/re...-decline-in-office-vacancy-in-2011-2011-12-28
 
Thanks for the link. I really hope the core sees continued activity and Mississauga and other 905 areas don't 'snatch' any potential office absorption that could have been seen in the core. It remains to be seen how many office projects can materialize but sometimes (in the grand scheme of things) I wonder if the developers are truly building the right size of buildings anticipating future demand and the increasingly few sites remaining for office developments. For example, say if several of the south core sites saw office projects materialize, which seem to be in the 750K sq. ft. (and 30 storey) range, years down the road, will the developers look back and say, "darn, we should have built 1 million sq. ft. projects on those fresh parcels of land in south core!" I feel that developers are focusing too much on the near future, building moderately-sized office projects (by downtown standards), with potential future repercussions. Of course I know that they have to see what sized project is the most economically beneficial to them, however, I wonder if a more long term focus on demand (and availability of sites to develop, including the initial cost of purchasing/acquiring the land), would create a different scenario for them (i.e. that it may be better to build bigger now)?

Not to mention that with the increasing number of condos everywhere in the greater downtown area and the tall buildings guidelines that will eventually be in place, I just don't know if there will be enough sites remaining to build tall office towers that can meet the builders' requirements (of profits) and the stringent tall building height restrictions (which could lead to building of office projects away from the core, which I truly don't like).

I dislike the vastly different nature of Canadian cities' office markets: Vancouver is so thin on them (and is so over condo-ized), whereas Calgary gets so many tall office projects and has so much future potential! Toronto, while second in the country in terms of new office demand in the core, still seems like a distant second to Calgary in terms of office absorption, the number and size (and even design) of office towers, etc. (I'm only referring to the core here so please don't reply to defend our beloved GTA with stats on how GTA's office size is several times greater than Calgary's etc.)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That's not really a fair statement, to my knowledge, and I'm fairly confident about this. The office component of ice was never taken to the market, they didn't even try. In other words there were no plans to get it going at the same time i.e. it's not on hold per say.

It's possible the developer will simply off load the site.

Now as a counter example, I can say with certainty projects like Bay Adelaide East 2 (i.e. the next office tower) are indeed being actively marketed.

If the City of Toronto had not implemented strict zoning guidelines for Block 9, Lanterra Developments would have marketed 16 York Street as the third phase of Ice Condominiums instead of the commercial tower. When compared to the most recent public rendering, the office component of York Centre is currently undergoing some moderate adjustments; Design of the first two levels, density of the tower and minor elevation increase. There are several potential tenants that have shown interest and one restriction the city imposed concerning the office component, is that construction will commence prior to the completion of 12 and 14 York Street.
 
Application: Partial Permit Status: Not Started

Location: 120 BREMNER BLVD
TORONTO ON

Ward 20: Trinity-Spadina

Application#: 10 255756 STR 00 PP Accepted Date: Dec 29, 2011

Project: Mixed Use/Res w Non Res Partial Permit - Structural Framing

Description: Part Permit - permit for construction of new mixed use building with Hotel and Retail uses. PLEASE NOTE THAT UNDERGROUND PARKING GARAGE WILL SERVICE HOTEL BUILDING AS WELL AS NEW OFFICE BUILDING TO BE APPLIED FOR AT A LATER DATE ON THE SAME SITE. - 47 Storey Hotel. 566 rooms - 3 levels of underground parking - 379 parking spaces - plus 26 small car parking spaces - all spaces to be divided between buildings. - SEE REFERENCE PACKAGE OF NEW OFFICE BUILDING.
 
Application: Partial Permit Status: Not Started

Location: 120 BREMNER BLVD
TORONTO ON

Ward 20: Trinity-Spadina

Application#: 10 255756 STR 00 PP Accepted Date: Dec 29, 2011

Project: Mixed Use/Res w Non Res Partial Permit - Structural Framing

Description: Part Permit - permit for construction of new mixed use building with Hotel and Retail uses. PLEASE NOTE THAT UNDERGROUND PARKING GARAGE WILL SERVICE HOTEL BUILDING AS WELL AS NEW OFFICE BUILDING TO BE APPLIED FOR AT A LATER DATE ON THE SAME SITE. - 47 Storey Hotel. 566 rooms - 3 levels of underground parking - 379 parking spaces - plus 26 small car parking spaces - all spaces to be divided between buildings. - SEE REFERENCE PACKAGE OF NEW OFFICE BUILDING.

So the office building is capped? Or are they just including all parking in the hotel so that they don't't have to do any work on the office building until they're actually ready to finish it entirely?
 

Back
Top