SunriseChampion
Senior Member
Are bullets the new "get out of jail card" to play?
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Toronto shootings
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Are bullets the new "get out of jail card" to play?
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
hahaa....yeah, my dogs have always been quick to spot rascals.
buildup
Senior Member
Feel terrible for the family of shooter too, they dealt with this misery for years, and now settled with thtis..
Johnny Au
Senior Member
For those who believe in reincarnation, perhaps so.
Unfortunately, even for those who believe in reincarnation, it may not go well.
Note that I believe that after one dies, everything goes black for that person.
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/can...eports-toronto-was-below-national-average-on/
We have been dealing with some really awful and traumatic incidences this year but to put the general topic in perspective.
Major points: Toronto’s homicide rate is well below the national average (1.41 vs. 1.8). Toronto consistently ranks in the bottom 5 cities in Canada on the violent crime severity index which measures all manner of violent crime and incarceration.
Problem areas: Toronto’s violent crime severity index score has been creeping up slightly over the last three years. Guns and gangs continue to be a source of problems. I guess you could add to that deranged mass murders and murder attempts in 2018.
We have been dealing with some really awful and traumatic incidences this year but to put the general topic in perspective.
Major points: Toronto’s homicide rate is well below the national average (1.41 vs. 1.8). Toronto consistently ranks in the bottom 5 cities in Canada on the violent crime severity index which measures all manner of violent crime and incarceration.
Problem areas: Toronto’s violent crime severity index score has been creeping up slightly over the last three years. Guns and gangs continue to be a source of problems. I guess you could add to that deranged mass murders and murder attempts in 2018.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
Yeah, it's been a weird year. Moon must be misaligned with Saturn....or whatever.
I don't understand why anyone would feel that this is somehow the end of normality for the city.
Shit was way worse in the early 90s....and that's just from what I remember from when I was a child.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
I don't really do thoughts and prayers. Keep in mind that's their word - will take it at face value for now but it require investigation by the police to really figure out what went wrong.
AoD
A man who claimed to be a friend of the shooter and his former youth worker was on Metro Morning today. Even if their relationship had changed over the years to friendship, I'm not impressed that someone who worked with him in a professional capacity would have so publicly spoken about that relationship, simply from an ethical / professional point of view.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
https://www.cp24.com/news/illegal-g...compared-to-those-smuggled-from-u-s-1.4025233
Looks like we need a domestic crackdown.
AoD
Looks like we need a domestic crackdown.
AoD
Northern Light
Superstar
First, let me say, I think its important not to imagine this one incident, in isolation is an example of anything, nor that it is the sole or primary justification of any change in our society.
Violent crime has always been with us. We don't have to like it, indeed we should seek to minimize it, but we should also be grateful that Toronto has a fairly low level of it for large urban centre when considering the numbers in a global context.
We have had a rougher than usual year, it does call for action, some immediate, some with a longer term horizon. No one action would necessarily have prevented this or any other crime/attack, its a matter of making somewhat less likely, and as much as possible preserving rights, and freedoms while assuring public safety.
That said, may I propose the following actions.
On handguns:
1) Modify the restricted weapons permit to require a marksmanship test. No, I don't want to train criminals, but if someone has a legal justification for owning, they really ought to be able
to hit their target. The side benefit is discouraging frivolous ownership.
2) Capping the number of handguns anyone can purchase, even if they have the lawful permit. I would suggest 2 should be adequate to anyone's needs. The object is to address, in part, what @AlvinofDiaspar noted above.
3) Likewise, requiring that if you have a restricted permit, your home will be inspected by police before your first purchase to verify that you have a gun safe for safe storage of the weapon, reducing the likelihood of theft.
4) You may only purchase ammunition for a weapon you have legally registered and with a valid permit, and both must be presented at time of purchase.
On Mental Health:
1) We must get 'core' mental health services and their associated drugs covered by OHIP such that no one lacks access to intervention due to financial circumstance.
2) If someone has been deemed by a mental health professional or the police to be a potential danger to themselves or others, they must automatically be flagged in the firearms purchase and ammunition purchase databases; their permits must be pulled, and any existing firearms and ammo retrieved.
On Diverting Young People from crime
1) In the short term, nothing is simpler and cheaper than ensuring that community centres are open later. Currently Toronto closes most centres at 3:30pm on the weekend and 9:30pm on weeknights.
I would suggest 10pm on school nights, midnight on Fri/Sat would be a way to provide entertainment/distraction/mentorship and supervision for young men (or women) in their teens.
2) In the medium term, address mentorship programs and supports for parents facing challenges, be their monetary, behavioral, or others so that parents have access to help, know where to turn to get help for themselves or their children.
3) Address income inequality. I read a study just the other day that shows a high correlation between the gini coefficient (income inequality) and homicide rates. Note the relationship isn't to poverty, but to the relative gap from those at or near the bottom of the economic ladder, to where the median level is found. That such a gap exists, in some sense is unavoidable, and regardless, no excuse for violence. But that there is a relationship between a condition where hopelessness, depression, self-pity and anger at societal unfairness exists is equally undeniable.
We must do more to ensure that the bottom is not so low as to make the middle seem unattainable.
Violent crime has always been with us. We don't have to like it, indeed we should seek to minimize it, but we should also be grateful that Toronto has a fairly low level of it for large urban centre when considering the numbers in a global context.
We have had a rougher than usual year, it does call for action, some immediate, some with a longer term horizon. No one action would necessarily have prevented this or any other crime/attack, its a matter of making somewhat less likely, and as much as possible preserving rights, and freedoms while assuring public safety.
That said, may I propose the following actions.
On handguns:
1) Modify the restricted weapons permit to require a marksmanship test. No, I don't want to train criminals, but if someone has a legal justification for owning, they really ought to be able
to hit their target. The side benefit is discouraging frivolous ownership.
2) Capping the number of handguns anyone can purchase, even if they have the lawful permit. I would suggest 2 should be adequate to anyone's needs. The object is to address, in part, what @AlvinofDiaspar noted above.
3) Likewise, requiring that if you have a restricted permit, your home will be inspected by police before your first purchase to verify that you have a gun safe for safe storage of the weapon, reducing the likelihood of theft.
4) You may only purchase ammunition for a weapon you have legally registered and with a valid permit, and both must be presented at time of purchase.
On Mental Health:
1) We must get 'core' mental health services and their associated drugs covered by OHIP such that no one lacks access to intervention due to financial circumstance.
2) If someone has been deemed by a mental health professional or the police to be a potential danger to themselves or others, they must automatically be flagged in the firearms purchase and ammunition purchase databases; their permits must be pulled, and any existing firearms and ammo retrieved.
On Diverting Young People from crime
1) In the short term, nothing is simpler and cheaper than ensuring that community centres are open later. Currently Toronto closes most centres at 3:30pm on the weekend and 9:30pm on weeknights.
I would suggest 10pm on school nights, midnight on Fri/Sat would be a way to provide entertainment/distraction/mentorship and supervision for young men (or women) in their teens.
2) In the medium term, address mentorship programs and supports for parents facing challenges, be their monetary, behavioral, or others so that parents have access to help, know where to turn to get help for themselves or their children.
3) Address income inequality. I read a study just the other day that shows a high correlation between the gini coefficient (income inequality) and homicide rates. Note the relationship isn't to poverty, but to the relative gap from those at or near the bottom of the economic ladder, to where the median level is found. That such a gap exists, in some sense is unavoidable, and regardless, no excuse for violence. But that there is a relationship between a condition where hopelessness, depression, self-pity and anger at societal unfairness exists is equally undeniable.
We must do more to ensure that the bottom is not so low as to make the middle seem unattainable.
steveintoronto
Superstar
There is a terrible spectre that many observing these things have noticed: If said shooter was driving a rented van, the death and injury toll would have been much higher. There's even less protection against that than eliminating guns, not that gun control isn't needed, obviously.
It's not unlike trying to prevent suicides by erecting barriers. They just go somewhere else. Perhaps that's a lesser of two evils, but is it unfair to consider that if someone is so bent on destruction....and I state this with all consideration of how morose it is...it's better that they just take their own life, and not that of others too?
I wrote more, erased it. I'll see how others respond to this first. It's a discussion we have to have.
It's not unlike trying to prevent suicides by erecting barriers. They just go somewhere else. Perhaps that's a lesser of two evils, but is it unfair to consider that if someone is so bent on destruction....and I state this with all consideration of how morose it is...it's better that they just take their own life, and not that of others too?
I wrote more, erased it. I'll see how others respond to this first. It's a discussion we have to have.
chicu1981
New Member
Dennis Young received a response from the RCMP to his ATI request in 2017.
The full 2014 annual report can be found here[PDF Warning]
This report only covers the guns used in crimes in the Western Region of Canada (BC-AB-SK-MB-YK-NWT).
The data from the report is as follows:
- The RCMP uses serial numbers to trace guns to their sources (domestic/US/other)
- In 2014, the RCMP managed to trace only 29% of the guns used in crime. Others had the serial number filed-off or were untraceable
- Out of the 29% of the guns that were traced, 50% of them were domestically sourced.
- Out of the 29% of the guns that were traced, 48% were deemed to be smuggled from the US. And 82% of those smuggled guns were handguns.
- In reality, only 14.5% of guns used in crime were domestically sourced (29% x 50% =14.5%)
The Liberals and anti-gunners are twisting the statistics and omitting the important facts.
chicu1981
New Member
On Firearms you are just so way off the mark. I suggest that you take a PAL and know Canadian laws before prescribing policy solutions to issues you have little understanding
Guns are already banned. You need a licence.
Murder is outlawed.
1)Marksmanship test? Really ? How would you administer it where? Who will pay?
2)Capping number of guns ? I say you need to worry about a person who needs just one not those who have a few for competition. It’s akin to saying you can only have two baseball bats. Most people who own handguns own several. What do you do with those? Confiscation without compensation? Been there done that.
3) Much stricter regime than you recommend is already in place. If you own a handgun police or officer of peace can demand to visit your house at any time.
4) Siginificant number of gun owners make their own Ammo. Same ammunition is used in multiple types of firearms e.g. rifles, handguns etc. Large majority of firearms are non-restricted hence not registered. For every caliber of a handgun there exists a non restricted rifle. So this point is moot. That is why I say you need some education on the current regime. Take PAL course and then we can talk.
Northern Light
Superstar
I don't wish to engage in a flame war, however, your exuberant and misplaced arrogance must be checked.
I am very familiar w/firearms tests and laws, PAL, Restricted Weapons, and ATC.
You should not draw ill informed assumptions.
In answer to your questions:
Marksmanship tests are a part of getting a firearms license in Japan and several other countries, the method of administration could vary, depending on volume, but the likely choice would be to administer the test at ranges than now offer the Canadian Firearms Safety Course.
The applicant would cover the cost of the test. Hardly complicated.
****
In respect of the number of guns, let's be clear CBC just did a story this morning, informed by the police that multiple valid PAL and/or Restricted Weapons license holders have been illegally dealing weapons, one person having done so 47 times.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/guns-domestic-danforth-shooting-toronto-1.4759159
The issue is not one of banning anything, nor of undue hardship on someone with a hobby, we could reasonably debate what number of hand guns (and I'm only discussing those, not long guns) would be reasonable for a hobbyist, but at some point, there is such a thing as an unreasonable number, and I'm certain 47 is well past it. Aside from avoiding intentional misconduct, one would have to be concerned that if someone has an arsenal of weapons at home, you will be a target for gun theft, and even a gun safe is not impregnable.
****
Your description of the inspection rights is Incorrect:
The Firearms Act provides that a firearms officer may inspect any premises where there is suspicion of more than 10 guns existing.
Who can do this and how can it be done? Who can enter to inspect? This is a firearms officer only (no other officers or helpers). Under C-68, firearms officers are restricted to designated offices. Not every police officer is a firearms officer. At the present time this should include your local firearms officer who assists in issuing transport permits and registration applications for restricted firearms. In Ontario there are less than 200 such officers. This number may shrink considerably.
The procedure is begun by a firearms officer contacting you to arrange for a date and time to inspect. You are obligated to make the arrangement within a reasonable time. That is when the firearms officer contacts you, you get back to him or her in a reasonable time to set the appointment some time in the future when it is convenient for both of you. Then the officer will attend and inspect your building. If you consent to this, the officer can stay until you revoke consent or until he/she is finished.
Per
https://cssa-cila.org/legals/inspections-and-warrants/
***
Don't be insulting. Ask around here, I do my homework before posting.
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steveintoronto
Superstar
Oh, well thank God for that then. Only 14.5% of the killings were domestic.
Since a lot of lethal accidents on the roads are from imported autos, we can discount them too...