Toronto Rogers Centre Renovations | ?m | ?s | Toronto Blue Jays | Populous

[Bogtrotter]

I wish I had the quote handy. It might’ve even been posted here early in the thread. But when asked if it would just be easier to start over, a Rogers rep insisted that it would cost twice as much to tear it down than it did to build it ($500M) because it’s a concrete bunker in the middle of a residential neighbourhood.

Conveniently forgetting that they insisted that they had no intention of knocking it down, this has all the hallmarks of building up public support to preserve a city icon which would lead to public money to save it. The SkyDome isn’t going anywhere, though I’d love to see Rogers get out of the baseball business and a new owner taking over and restoring the stadium’s name. Seeing a statue of Ted Rogers outside the SkyDome always leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

It seems like there is a similar love/hate situation with the Houston Astrodome- the so called "eight wonder of the world" and first domed multi-purpose stadium. Also a massive bunker the cost of the demo was much exaggerated in a campaign to keep it- which would have been the most expensive in US history. A 2013 referendum to renovate was rejected because of the cost, and subsequent schemes to utilize the space have fallen through. It still sits empty with the major sports team long gone. Not sure who is paying to keep it running- but I can guess.

 

[gabe]

People like to drink at games. The best location for a stadium is exactly were it is now. GO access from every suburb, TTC access, a huge population that can walk to games, and fairly easy car access. Not that they couldn't succeed elsewhere, but comparatively, everywhere else is suboptimal. Maybe Exhibition once the Ontario line is complete.. Portlands would be a maybe if they made Skydome last another 30 years.

Yep people like to drink before, during and after the games like me. Those restaurants around the dome are packed during game day. Especially the year the Jays made the playoffs. From the Eaton Centre to Front street, every bar and restaurant was flooded with Jays fans. I 'm a big jays fan, i don't own a car, i would think twice about going to a game, if i have to drive or have a long commute on the TTC. I have never drove to the dome. I remember as a kid going to Jays games, living way out in the burbs, my dad and I always took the GO train into the downtown for Jays games. Now the subway goes out to Vaughan, even less people are driving to the games or other events at the Rogers Centre.

 

[SubHuman]

..What alternative sites could Billy Bishop relocate to? Demolishing the current airport wouldn't be too expensive, given its small scale. Have there ever been serious talks about moving it elsewhere?..

A replacement for an airport that close to downtown? I don't see how that would ever be possible, other than a hugely expensive project to build a new one on reclaimed land even farther out into Lake Ontario.
The next closest airstrip is Downsview, which won't be there much longer. The land has already been sold, and I don't think it was ever proposed as an airport for passengers with a terminal that would have had to be constructed. It has a longer runway than the Island Airport, and Bombardier had one of their C Series (now Airbus A220) jet airliners land there once, but it was purely a demonstration event.

C Series makes first visit to Toronto - Skies Mag

On Sept. 9, Bombardier’s CS100 flight test vehicle five visited Bombardier's DeHavilland Site at Toronto Downsview Airport for an employee and media event.

www.skiesmag.com

 

[ericmacm]

Let's face it - renovations to the Skydome would have been announced already if they were viable. The decision to pivot to demolition and new construction has not come out of nowhere. The desire for a major overhaul has been present for at least a decade. In 2015, the major reason that the Blue Jays hired Mark Shapiro as president was because of his work in renovating Progressive Field. Even over the last few years prior to 2020 (when Brookfield became involved), there were many renovation discussions/rumours, including plans for real grass, translucent roof panels, rotating the entire field to line up with the CN Tower, and realigning the seating to better improve the baseball experience. These are not insignificant renovations and would involve changing the fundamental structure of the Dome.

At this point, it is abundantly clear that renovations to bring the Dome to where Rogers/Blue Jays/MLB want it are going to be incredibly costly. I would not be surprised if the renovations to the Dome would end up in a $1-1.5B range. While demolition costs will undoubtedly be expensive, renovation will most certainly be even more so. While it will be impossible to know the actual numbers until the plan emerges publicly, the shift in tone over the past 5 years shows that the original plans would not be as cost-effective, and that demolition and reconstruction will be the way to move forward. Despite what many may think, these multibillion dollar companies absolutely understand the costs of what they are planning here.

There is also little to no chance that they have gotten this far without consulting with the City or the federal government. Again, this hasn't come out of nowhere. Even with the originally planned renovations, they have been in discussions with the City. I highly doubt that the City would be taken by surprise at the news and end up pivoting to be fully against Rogers' plans. There is no way that the City wouldn't support this, especially if Rogers/Brookfield will be financing the whole thing privately.

It is really great that so many people have fond memories at/of the Dome, but it has grown obsolete. This is just what happens in the sports world. Yes, I will agree that the demolition of stadiums every 30 years or so is quite wasteful (if I had to guess, the Dome will probably be around 35 by the time all of this goes into motion), but that does not necessarily mean that we should keep the Dome around forever. Stadiums like the Dome are meant to be a lot more than just an iconic ornament to a skyline view. Rogers will, either here or at another site, build a new ballpark, but that will leave the Dome with no tenants at all, leaving it empty to sit and rot. The Argos will most certainly be staying at BMO, if the CFL even survives into the future. There will be no NFL team coming to Toronto (they would also 100% ask for a brand new stadium if they ever did). It will be a very long time before Toronto puts in another Olympic bid, but they would probably just want build a new stadium anyway.

There is no future for the Dome and people have to accept that.

 

[Bogtrotter]

Yep people like to drink before, during and after the games like me. Those restaurants around the dome are packed during game day. Especially the year the Jays made the playoffs. From the Eaton Centre to Front street, every bar and restaurant was flooded with Jays fans. I 'm a big jays fan, i don't own a car, i would think twice about going to a game, if i have to drive or have a long commute on the TTC. I have never drove to the dome. I remember as a kid going to Jays games, living way out in the burbs, my dad and I always took the GO train into the downtown for Jays games. Now the subway goes out to Vaughan, even less people are driving to the games or other events at the Rogers Centre.

In terms of attendance the central downtown location is definitely more advantageous. Other ballclubs have even pointed to Toronto when deciding on relocating their venues- that is one thing they did get right.

 

[MetroMan]

A replacement for an airport that close to downtown?

Thats a trick question. We don’t need an airport downtown. We have a major international airport that is connected to downtown via a 25 min train. It can sometimes take longer than that to get a cab from Bathurst Quay to the financial district In Toronto traffic.

While I‘d like to see the SkyDome remain and don’t believe it‘ll be demolished given the cost, I understand the Jays’ needs aren’t being met. A ballpark on the site of Billy Bishop airport would be perfect. It’s well connected by transit (waterfront LRT) and the tunnel allows pedestrian access without a bridge. Replace the elevator on the mainland side with a ramp or escalators, emerging on the other side in the new ballpark’s concourse.

 

[Bogtrotter]

Thats a trick question. We don’t need an airport downtown. We have a major international airport that is connected to downtown via a 25 min train. It can sometimes take longer than that to get a cab from Bathurst Quay to the financial district In Toronto traffic.

While I‘d like to see the SkyDome remain and don’t believe it‘ll be demolished given the cost, I understand the Jays’ needs aren’t being met. A ballpark on the site of Billy Bishop airport would be perfect. It’s well connected by transit (waterfront LRT) and the tunnel allows pedestrian access without a bridge. Replace the elevator on the mainland side with a ramp or escalators, emerging on the other side in the new ballpark’s concourse.

It would be a good location, and the earlier point about the orientation of the field in the Portlands is a good one. However I'm not sure funneling 30,000- 40,000 people through the tunnel is going to work well. There would need to be better connectivity. I do like the idea though but I really doubt the airport is going anywhere and see it more likely the dome is demolished. Undoubtedly expensive but not prohibitive. I believe the estimate for the Astrodome was a maximum of 78M- which was considered by some as an inflated figure.

 

[EddyMCD]

I looked at this some more trying to figure out if they could actually demo and build in place (without re-locating the team), or if that is just a red herring. I think it's mostly not possible, but if they were to do it here's what would have to happen. I don't really think this is feasible.

1. During an offseason, they would have to demolish the southern 1/3rd of the Rogers Centre, along with a chunk of the seating/stands. During this same offseason, they would have to rotate the playing field in the RC 180 degrees (since home plate and the dugouts are currently at the south end). This would involve demolishing a lot of seats and bringing in temporary seating for the next few seasons. They could seal off the open south end, or leave it open. In order for this to work the roof would have to be retracted permanently, with no ability to close.

2. As season #1 is being played out, you begin construction of the new stadium, pushed as far south as possible. You probably only complete 1/4 or 1/3 of the new stadium. This arrangement could continue as long as necessary.

3. During the next offseason you continue construction as much of the new stadium as possible, and the playing surface (outfield/bullpens) is extended into the portion of demolished Rogers Centre. Stands are built down the baselines. The goal here is to get a usable playing field, with whatever limited amount of seats you can finish.

4. The next season is played in the new stadium with no outfield seating whatsoever and demolition continuing on the remainder of the RC. Once this season is over you finish the outfield seating.

5. You continue to play in the new open air stadium until the demolition is entirely complete.

6. Finally, you have one last offseason to install a roof on the new building. If this isn't feasible, the whole plan falls apart.

For all of this to happen, Bremner is closed indefinitely between Van de Water and Rees.

 

[Ward8]

A ballpark on the site of Billy Bishop airport would be perfect. It’s well connected by transit

Not regionally though. Any new park would need to be located easy walking distance from, at least, the Lakeshore east/west GO line. The other spot that could theoretically work in a future scenario is the East harbour development. Still it's less ideal than the current location.

I personally have doubts that the renovation/retrofitting plans are as cost prohibitive as Rogers says they are. It could very well be the case, but it also fits really neatly into a narrative that supports a demolition and rebuild where the parties involved make a killing on new real estate development. A new facility would certainly be better for the Jays, but it's not as if teams can't survive in old cruddy ballparks. Fenway for example lacks any modern amenities, doesn't have enough washroom facilities and literally smells like urine. (It fits into the urban fabric of Boston impeccably but that's a different consideration.) Point is. The Jays will be ok for a while longer, and any new stadium needs careful consideration to have longevity and be in the best interests of the city.

 

[MetroMan]

Not regionally though. Any new park would need to be located easy walking distance from, at least, the Lakeshore east/west GO line. The other spot that could theoretically work in a future scenario is the East harbour development. Still it's less ideal than the current location.

I personally have doubts that the renovation/retrofitting plans are as cost prohibitive as Rogers says they are. It could very well be the case, but it also fits really neatly into a narrative that supports a demolition and rebuild where the parties involved make a killing on new real estate development. A new facility would certainly be better for the Jays, but it's not as if teams can't survive in old cruddy ballparks. Fenway for example lacks any modern amenities, doesn't have enough washroom facilities and literally smells like urine. (It fits into the urban fabric of Boston impeccably but that's a different consideration.) Point is. The Jays will be ok for a while longer, and any new stadium needs careful consideration to have longevity and be in the best interests of the city.

A GO station is planned for Front and Spadina. Not too much farther than current fans have to go through the PATH from Union Station to the SkyDome, granted that's mostly indoors.

 

[MetroMan]

It would be a good location, and the earlier point about the orientation of the field in the Portlands is a good one. However I'm not sure funneling 30,000- 40,000 people through the tunnel is going to work well. There would need to be better connectivity. I do like the idea though but I really doubt the airport is going anywhere and see it more likely the dome is demolished. Undoubtedly expensive but not prohibitive. I believe the estimate for the Astrodome was a maximum of 78M- which was considered by some as an inflated figure.

Astrodome would've been demolished by explosive in the middle of a suburban car park.

All the CityPlace glass towers, tightly packed around the dome would instantly shatter. This is the reason given by Rogers that it would cost too much to demolish which is why they've been renovating it instead.

A SkyDome demolition would have to happen by hydraulic demolition hammers which could only run during the day and would take years. Nobody would accept that, even in daytime. It'd be a political nightmare. SkyDome is protected by CityPlace. This concrete bunker will be with us for decades.

If the Jays want to play somewhere else, the SkyDome can be converted into a convention centre which, coincidentally we're going to need as the MTCC is destined to be replaced. Replace the seating rings with convention rooms and amphitheatres and amenities like restaurants and hotel rooms, while the field with the seats removed could remain largely untouched as a showroom floor. Whether there'd be a need for movable roof is up to thinking of creative summer uses or it can be replaced with a fixed glass skylight.

 

[Ward8]

A GO station is planned for Front and Spadina.

I did forget about that, but it's still about double the distance and the route could be confusing for out of towners. Personally, I fully support different uses for the airport, but I don't think an island stadium would work well logistically. It would be a hell of a spot to see a game though...

 

[Bogtrotter]

When was the Astrodome demolished? I read it was still standing in a fairly recent article.

 

[JMSRead]

For what it's worth, journalists who are the most clued into baseball (guys like Davidi, Blair, Brunt) say the idea of the Jays playing elsewhere for a prolonged period of time is an absolute non starter. Probably not worth really considering that option as a possibility. So they'll be playing at Skydome during construction (unless you could do something like temporarily configure BMO to baseball? Seems unlikely.) If you're interested in discussion on the dome/new stadium, Friday's episode of 'Writer's Bloc' on 590 was quite good. They spoke to the author of the Globe story and to a city planner. The hosts also talked about how sports executives have talked for years about creating some kind of 'sports corridor' going from the Scotiabank Areana, to the Rogers Centre, all the way to BMO connected by parks etc. That might just be referring to Rail Deck Park.

 

[T.E.C.II]

For those wishing to see a new stadium built in the Port Lands, for the views that such a location would offer with respect to the skyline, such an option is not viable. Why? MLB stadiums tend to have their fields oriented either in a northerly or northeasterly direction, in order to diminish glare from the sun. Were a stadium to be built here, with the objective of having the City skyline as the backdrop, it would have to be built in a westerly or north westerly direction, which isn't feasible, as that would face into the afternoon and evening sun, making it too difficult for the batters to see, not to mention adversely affecting the comfort of the fans. With that known, the Port Lands should be off the table, as an option. If a stadium was to go in here, it wouldn't have the dramatic views that some are envisioning, rather, the field would face somewhere out over the City, east of the Don River. This would be unremarkable as a backdrop, with virtually nothing of interest being visible, thereby greatly diminishing the atmosphere. Even if a prospective stadium in the Port Lands could face toward downtown, the views of the skyline from east of the Financial District, aren't the most flattering vantage points of the City. From downtown, the most dramatic and aesthetically pleasing direction from which to view the skyline is looking northeast from the Islands/lake; which brings to me to my next point.

Unfortunately, this is more of a 'pie in the sky' fantasy, but the most ideal location for a new stadium for the Blue Jays would be on the site of Billy Bishop Airport, facing northeast, either where the airport structures are located, or southeast of that, toward (not on) the edge of the runway that juts out into the inner harbour. This would more or less offer the same kind of views that were historically used in many Toronto postcards, prior to CityPlace, when the CN Tower, SkyDome, Financial District could be viewed from this sort of vantage, mostly uninterrupted. Below are some examples of what I mean:

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Abutting the portion of the runway, in the foreground, is where I would love to see a new stadium built. This, more or less, offers a slightly elevated view of what the stadium would have looked onto circa the 1990s.

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The further to the right of this area of Centre Island (as close as possible to the inner harbour), the more unobstructed the views would be toward the CN Tower and the CBD (Central Business District). CityPlace's lacklustre skyline would most only be seen in one's peripheral vision (unless would was sitting on the right of home plate). Views of the Mirvish/Gehry towers would also supplement what would be one of the greatest backdrops for a stadium in Major League Baseball. Obviously, even if the prospect of building a stadium on the Islands was viable, getting to and from the mainland, and the stadium, would require more than a single bridge to accommodate that many people.
View attachment 285798

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Michael Muraz

Potential ground level views. These photos were taken closer to the channel, however. The location I have in mind would be further south:

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Though, evening glare from the South Core towers might pose an issue.

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Imagine the views of the lake that one could have from the concourse of a hypothetical stadium, at this location. One could also get incredible views inside of the stadium from the CN Tower's main observation deck (where this photo was taken from). The runway portion that juts out into the lake could be removed, thereby expanding the harbour, or that land could be turned into a massive pier or some other park use, tying in with other revitalization plans for the vast amount of open green space at this end of the island.

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I'm just curious: What alternative sites could Billy Bishop relocate to? Demolishing the current airport wouldn't be too expensive, given its small scale. Have there ever been serious talks about moving it elsewhere? Its such a waste of prime land. The only building project that I would support here would be a new MLB stadium (perhaps with a few restaurants), with additional tree planting, and a revitalization of the surrounding park land to accommodate fans, before and after games, as well as other visitors to the Islands.

Lastly, I echo the sentiments of those who wish to see the SkyDome preserved and repurposed (what for, I don't know). It is an integral piece of our central skyline, and an engineering marvel of its time. With respect to whatever ends up getting built ― wherever that may be ― an international design competition, bringing together the world's foremost architects, should be considered.

Excellent point about the Port Lands. I hadn't taken into consideration the field orientation.

I'm also with you on Billy Bishop, however unlikely it would be. Besides the spectacular view, it also already has a baseball history, being home to Hanlan's Point Stadium, and where Babe Ruth hit his first major league home run.

Image by Aladone.