Toronto Regional Board of Trade Regional Rail Report

[ARG1]

I thought the Milton line couldn’t handle all day service. Has things changed?

It can't, this proposal runs on the assumption that you find a way to reroute freight traffic first, and acknowledges that this is a very unlikely possibility so it shouldn't be a priority, but if you could make it happen, then this is why such a route would make sense and how it would be run.

 

[sixrings]

It can't, this proposal runs on the assumption that you find a way to reroute freight traffic first, and acknowledges that this is a very unlikely possibility so it shouldn't be a priority.

Isn’t the Milton line in particular cooksville station one of the busiest go train stations? Wouldn’t busiest make it a priority.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

An interesting idea that is similar is called CANZUK. The proposal is for freedom of movement between Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and the UK. Many politicians in these countries have expressed support, and it has polled as a popular idea.

View attachment 309112

You seem to think Conservatives in Canada would be against it, but the idea was promoted by Andrew Scheer before he stepped down, and the Conservative party in Australia has also spoken in favour of it.

This is an issue that I would view pro business conservatives as supporting, while nationalist conservatives would not.

 

[ARG1]

Isn’t the Milton line in particular cooksville station one of the busiest go train stations? Wouldn’t busiest make it a priority.

Well its a question of what putting up on priority entails. Diverting Freight Traffic means building the missing link and also convincing CP to use this Freight Link, likely by forking over even more cash. Back in 2014, the Missing Link was estimated to cost 10 Billion Dollars (which would probably be like 15bill with the construction cost inflation), or the cost of the DRL just to build the infrastructure that allows for a bypass, then 100s of millions or even more just to buy the track from CP and convincing them to share the York Sub with CN. Yes Cooksville is a busy station, and while a Milton Line RER would be amazing, there is a lot going against it.

 

[sixrings]

Well its a question of what putting up on priority entails. Diverting Freight Traffic means building the missing link and also convincing CP to use this Freight Link, likely by forking over even more cash. Back in 2014, the Missing Link was estimated to cost 10 Billion Dollars (which would probably be like 15bill with the construction cost inflation), or the cost of the DRL just to build the infrastructure that allows for a bypass, then 100s of millions or even more just to buy the track from CP and convincing them to share the York Sub with CN. Yes Cooksville is a busy station, and while a Milton Line RER would be amazing, there is a lot going against it.

I mistakenly thought based on the SSE and the Yonge extension that money was no object.

 

[ARG1]

I mistakenly thought based on the SSE and the Yonge extension that money was no object.

Funny you say that because of one of those projects is getting serious design cuts so that it becomes affordable, and is getting a ton of weird design changes just to save money, so money is definitely an object. Its a question of whether or not you believe spending extra money to remove a linear transfer, or to reach more developable land so that more of the cost can be offset by developers is worth it. As for the missing link itself, its probably going to happen after all of the GO RER stuff gets well underway. Even if it doesn't benefit the milton line, it could be used to get all way all day GO train service on the Kitchener Line all the way to Kitchener. There is currently a study process to electrify the western section of the line from Georgetown and Kitchener which would leave the section between Georgetown and Bramalea unelectrified. This could either mean that A) Metrolinx is planning for a method to bridge the gap with battery trains or B) They're working with CN and making deals to get the missing link done, and afaik CN is planning on a logistics hub in Milton so that might be in preparation for the Missing Link to be built in the future. Of course all of this is beyond the scope of the subject matter that is the TRBOT report so they just have it as "If CP Rail Freight can get rerouted, here's how it could be used and why it would be valuable, if and when that happens is not our concern or the focus".

 

[afransen]

I think the point that just ruins Steve's take is that he concedes that:
- This is a series
- Local transit will be covered in the next paper
- But then complains that local transit isn't included in this paper.

I get the feeling that Steve is not a fan of ideas that aren't his.

 

[afransen]

It can't, this proposal runs on the assumption that you find a way to reroute freight traffic first, and acknowledges that this is a very unlikely possibility so it shouldn't be a priority, but if you could make it happen, then this is why such a route would make sense and how it would be run.

I thought it was just a matter of widening the corridor, at a cost of several billion.

 

[MisterF]

Isn't the "United States of America" a "European Union"? Since the original "states" were originally "colonies", even a sovereign country (Republic of Texas, March 2, 1836, to February 19, 1846)?

Maybe in theory in the 18th century, sure. But in practice in the 21st? No.

 

[ARG1]

I thought it was just a matter of widening the corridor, at a cost of several billion.

Well you could do that to run all day service, but you won't be able to electrify it which kinda kills the point of this whole trillium rail idea. Electrification and the creation of a mainline rail line would require the full control and ownership of the respective rail corridor, so you need a completely different route for CP trains to run on.

 

[nfitz]

I thought it was just a matter of widening the corridor, at a cost of several billion.

It is. That's why the province pushed it out to further out in the Regional Transit Plan.

I'm not sure where they claim that it can't comes from. That's not what we've discussed here in past decades, nor what the province has said. The only thing the province backed off in the 2010s compared to their 2000s proposal, was the express service to Square One, by branching off somewhere before Cooksville - but that was in the post-40 year period after RER.

 

[afransen]

Well you could do that to run all day service, but you won't be able to electrify it which kinda kills the point of this whole trillium rail idea. Electrification and the creation of a mainline rail line would require the full control and ownership of the respective rail corridor, so you need a completely different route for CP trains to run on.

Why couldn't we electrify? If it is just because it needs to cross CP tracks, isn't that what batteries are for?

 

[drum118]

As it stands now, GO is on the south side around the Humber River to the cut off and on the north side for rest of the route to Milton. There has been a plan from day one to have a GO fly under at the Humber area. Between the fly under on GO on opposite side of CP Mainline that will have 2 + 2 tracks in the corridor, there is nothing stopping the line being electrify other than the Streetsville area yard and cut off. To deal with that area, you will need to build 2 more fly under to have the GO tracks on the south side starting at the 403 and then west of the Meadowvale station. This mean rebuilding the Meadowvale station with a centre platform and a side one.

CP has seen that 4 track corridor as having 3 tracks to use when needed than their current 1-2 tracks. If you really want to please CP and have electrify tracks, you build 5 track where it can be done and there are areas you can do it.

As for a branch Line to Sq One, you use a tram-train that connect to the Hurontario Line that only needs a short section area to do it and it is there now.

At some point, Mississauga Rd has to be grade separated as well 2 others and the closure of 2. 9th line is already on Mississauga books to be grade separated and this leave Halton to grade a number of crossing. To do all of this is close to $3B compare to the $2.1B plan in 2014 that only had one fly under, 4 tracks and no grade separation.

CN Halton sub can support 4 tracks compare to the current 1-3 tracks in place now, but getting CN to do the same thing as CP could be easier, but still costly to do. Then there is the double tracking the line to KW that has its own issues with many grade crossing.

Once there are battery power trains, then the electrifying the line is a non existing issue. Still need areas to charge the battery power trains along the route as backup service.

As I stated in the past, there is no missing link that others call it it, but and other than a new route that has to be paid 100% by the province since it their call to do it. It will be build to RR standards, but provision must be made to allow HSR type service on it for future needs. Can see the Halton Sub to Burlington and to the east of Toronto having RER type service on it.

There is no needs for stations at Sherbourne and only haft the stations for Cherry St as well at Spadina.

 

[ssiguy2]

Did a video on this!

It is a great report and would be ideal for GO and I share your enthusiasm. One thing I do not agree with it and you on however is the types of trains. You state {and correct me if I've misunderstood you} is that it is a good idea to have just one basic train type for all GO services.

Contrary to what some here may think, I am a supporter of double-deck trains but just not for the RER portion. The new map shows how GO commuter would have fewer stations and RER many more and this makes sense. It maintains GO's current function of commuter services. Anyone taking these trains will probably be you current standard commuter to Union. This is best served by DD trains as they simply can hold more people and there are vastly fewer on/off passengers. Of course the problem is that they, due to not being level boarding and fewer and smaller doors is that they are significantly slower due to long station dwell times. This can also screw up tight time schedules.

The new Paris RER NG {next generation} trains soon to be delivered help solve this issue. They will be one long train {most about 130 meters to 150 meters} with articulation but roughly 30 to 40% of the cars will be one-level. These cars will have level boarding, more and much wider doors, and are ideal for fast entry/exit to say nothing of more accessible for people in wheelchairs, the elderly, parents with strollers, and people with bikes...............it helps get rid of the station dwell problem that plagues most DD trains like the current GO fleet. The DD portion entries have wider doors a la Sydney's new trains.

I also think that such trains will be more helpful to the general public. Having DD cars as always the first and last one will help people easily differentiate the incoming train and hence the service it provides..................bi-levels are GO commuter and single levels are RER.

 

[MrGoose]

As it stands now, GO is on the south side around the Humber River to the cut off and on the north side for rest of the route to Milton. There has been a plan from day one to have a GO fly under at the Humber area. Between the fly under on GO on opposite side of CP Mainline that will have 2 + 2 tracks in the corridor, there is nothing stopping the line being electrify other than the Streetsville area yard and cut off. To deal with that area, you will need to build 2 more fly under to have the GO tracks on the south side starting at the 403 and then west of the Meadowvale station. This mean rebuilding the Meadowvale station with a centre platform and a side one.

CP has seen that 4 track corridor as having 3 tracks to use when needed than their current 1-2 tracks. If you really want to please CP and have electrify tracks, you build 5 track where it can be done and there are areas you can do it.

As for a branch Line to Sq One, you use a tram-train that connect to the Hurontario Line that only needs a short section area to do it and it is there now.

At some point, Mississauga Rd has to be grade separated as well 2 others and the closure of 2. 9th line is already on Mississauga books to be grade separated and this leave Halton to grade a number of crossing. To do all of this is close to $3B compare to the $2.1B plan in 2014 that only had one fly under, 4 tracks and no grade separation.

CN Halton sub can support 4 tracks compare to the current 1-3 tracks in place now, but getting CN to do the same thing as CP could be easier, but still costly to do. Then there is the double tracking the line to KW that has its own issues with many grade crossing.

Once there are battery power trains, then the electrifying the line is a non existing issue. Still need areas to charge the battery power trains along the route as backup service.

As I stated in the past, there is no missing link that others call it it, but and other than a new route that has to be paid 100% by the province since it their call to do it. It will be build to RR standards, but provision must be made to allow HSR type service on it for future needs. Can see the Halton Sub to Burlington and to the east of Toronto having RER type service on it.

There is no needs for stations at Sherbourne and only haft the stations for Cherry St as well at Spadina.

Is quad tracking the CN North Toronto Sub possible?