Toronto Queens Quay & Water's Edge Revitalization | ?m | ?s | Waterfront Toronto

AlvinofDiaspar said:
Indeed - not familiar = drive slower, pay more attention. Not barge in, cause a SNAFU and then complain about how it is everything but problems with the drivers. In a sad way perhaps things are too predictable in Toronto, reducing those with already low driving skills to the point of being unable to handle anything out of the ordinary (case in point, think about the amount of grief something as universal as traffic circles creates in the Ontario setting).

AoD
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I've heard a lot of witless complaining about how the amount spent on the revitalization (and the overrun) is somehow to blame for people's confusion, like it was all an expensive prank and no one really has any control over where they drive, walk or bike.

And yes, traffic circles. Last time I went around the Square One roundabout I got honked at by a driver who wanted to get in, even though there are clearly yield signs all around and the rule is to yield to cars already in the circle. Sheesh.
 
flyinggoats said:
What is the status of Bill 173 that was going to allow for bicycle traffic lights like these http://images.nymag.com/news/articles/reasonstoloveny/2010/rtlny101222_number21_250.jpg ?
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Bill 173 has been replaced by Bill 31, which just received royal assent.
http://www.ontla.on.ca/web/bills/bi...&BillID=3057&detailPage=bills_detail_the_bill

Here's a summary report from the City of Ottawa
http://app05.ottawa.ca/sirepub/agdocs.aspx?doctype=agenda&itemid=332336
 
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The Keenan article was spot on. It doesn't take very much time sitting at Queen's Quay to figure out there's a problem. I'm somewhat disinclined to blame drivers as well. There are plenty of stupid drivers, but it wasn't until I sat and watched and saw how many made the same mistake, that I now 95% blame the design.

There's also a lot of discussion of drivers getting used to the change. That's very well and good for people that live and work in this area; however, some fraction of traffic will always be unfamiliar with any given area, and it's that traffic for which the design must be intuitive.

Right now, I know the subtlety with gentle transition from various shades of pavers to granite sounds and looks beautiful; however, on a rainy weekend like this past one, all that subtlety will be missed, and clear unmistakable markings, signals, and signs are a necessity.
 
Are there still webcams pointing at the street? Or maybe someone should drive up and down with a dashcam just to show what it's really like.
 
So, Keenan is saying on Twitter that (a) yes, WT is has heard the concerns and have been formulating changes to clear up the confusion and (b) I infer he must be happy with the changes planned as he says he's going to do a follow-up column praising the response.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
Human behaviour is malleable, and quite frankly users need to take some responsibilities for their actions on shared spaces instead of blaming design. Funny how design can be "incompetent" while mistakes are relegated as "human behaviour". That's coddling.

And sorry, urban living entail risks - and the safest designs are often the most boring, soul-deadening ones. Most certainly not what you wanted along the waterfront.

AoD
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Are you kidding me? I expect designers/planners to act competently, it's what they get paid for. I don't 'expect' the public to do so, and nor should the planners. Besides, why should users take responsibility for being confused in a confusing space? Planners had years to get this right and spent millions in endless studies. It's not enough to be dazzled by pretty plans, design has to function too.

And I reject your notions that effective design must be boring or that people should shut up and accept danger in the urban realm... but sure, let's continue to blame the users, how predictable a posture here! Human behaviour is malleable, but it needs to be directed and conditioned carefully.
 
Tewder said:
Are you kidding me? I expect designers/planners to act competently, it's what they get paid for. I don't 'expect' the public to do so, and nor should the planners. Besides, why should users take responsibility for being confused in a confusing space? Planners had years to get this right and spent millions in endless studies. It's not enough to be dazzled by pretty plans, design has to function too.

And I reject your notions that effective design must be boring or that people should shut up and accept danger in the urban realm... but sure, let's continue to blame the users, how predictable a posture here! Human behaviour is malleable, but it needs to be directed and conditioned carefully.
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You are operating a vehicle weighting a ton or more - the user need to take all responsibility under the circumstances. Being confused is not an excuse. And if you think this space is "confusing", try the old towns of various cities. Ignorance and inability to handle the out of the ordinary doesn't cut it - and if one consistently couldn't handle that, they should rethink whether they really belong on the road.

By all means direct and condition - through use, education and enforcement. Rest assured, they won't be making the same mistake again. And if you really want to kiddie proof it, smack a 20-30 kph speed limit the moment you enter the stretch.

AoD
 
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You can provide constructive feedback to Waterfront Toronto on their
We Want Your Feedback on the New Queens Quay
webpage, at this link.

Go to the bottom of the page and click on the Fill out this online form link.
How to submit your feedback
  • Fill out this online form
  • Join us on a site walk. We’ll be holding bi-weekly public site walks this summer. No need to register – just drop in and meet with members of our project team on Queens Quay. A schedule for site walks in July and August will be released soon, but our first walk is scheduled for June 30 at 5:30pm. We will depart from the Simcoe WaveDeck. A more detailed calendar of all planned walks will be available soon.
  • Contact us at info@waterfrontoronto.ca
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and submit it.
 
Am I the only person who doesn't find QQ confusing? o_O I'm not smarter than the average bear, but to me it is completely logical. Cars go in one place, streetcars in another and so on. EB and WB vehicles are on either side of the road.
 
PL: I think a lot of people operate on previous experience on the road instead of observation and signage (which few, if any really follow in detail) - that's why people have some many issues with curve balls like QQ.

AoD
 
Or maybe it's because I have been following the project closely and knew what to expect
 
I don't find it confusing at all either.
AlvinofDiaspar said:
There is that too - and recall the issues with Spadina LRT when it first opened as well. Drivers can't seem to handle that the streetcar ROW isn't always shared.

AoD
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They still cant. Time and time again, a car ends up on the Spadina ROW at Spadina/Lakeshore.
 
Tuscani01 said:
I don't find it confusing at all either.
They still cant. Time and time again, a car ends up on the Spadina ROW at Spadina/Lakeshore.
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Not nearly as bad as it first opened - I think they ended up having to install barriers of some kind as a stop-gap elsewhere along the line.

AoD
 
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