Toronto prices decline 15% in mid-October

[condoboy]

Nonsense. Face it. It's over. All we have to compare are these normally self-serving TREB stats and on their stats its a veritable blood bath. Read: Halloween Mascare 2008. Toronto housing market CRASH! (I don't care I'm a happy renter )

We're now down 16% from the peak peak in April 2008 ($446,781) and falling fast. Flippers are holding toxic paper + guess who else is negative equity? CMHC from 07 on.

0% down is dead. 40 year amortizations is dead. Housing market will return to its rightful owners. The users.

It's over. Deal. Feel. Heal.

Quanttrader....that's where you got it all wrong. It's not the flippers that are going to get screwed if there is a market crash. Flippers usually buy into newer properties and in highly sought after neighbourhoods. Their investments would hold their market value better and they usually hold more than one investment at a time which would give them better negotiating power with the lenders and enable them to abosrb a fall in prices much easier. It's the regular people that would get screwed in Canada if the banks like they did in the U.S. totally refuse to negotiate with the rightful owners of the properties and foreclose before anything can get done. Btw, 0 down and 40 years was over a long time ago in Canada, although not officially until recently. Compare 2008 prices to 2006 prices please. The year 2007 for real estate was an anamoly that broke every record in the book! Joe the plummer get's screwed Quanttrader...not Joe the flipper

 

[Quanttrader]

Quanttrader....that's where you got it all wrong. It's not the flippers that are going to get screwed if there is a market crash. Flippers usually buy into newer properties and in highly sought after neighbourhoods. Their investments would hold their market value better and they usually hold more than one investment at a time which would give them better negotiating power with the lenders and enable them to abosrb a fall in prices much easier. It's the regular people that would get screwed in Canada if the banks like they did in the U.S. totally refuse to negotiate with the rightful owners of the properties and foreclose before anything can get done. Btw, 0 down and 40 years was over a long time ago in Canada, although not officially until recently. Compare 2008 prices to 2006 prices please. The year 2007 for real estate was an anamoly that broke every record in the book! Joe the plummer get's screwed Quanttrader...not Joe the flipper

I noticed your name is Condoboy and not Condoman.

Regular people will be fine. They budgeted properly, live in their homes, and typically were more conservative when they decided to buy a home in the first place.

Flippers, of which you are obviously one, are infectious market destroyers. If you were around long around back then you would know that in the late eighties Harborfront condos, of which most would agree are pretty desirable, sunk like a stone because they were dominated by flippers. Same thing will happen now. You won't be able to give away a unit down there come the Spring time 2009. Ask a Big 6 banker what he thinks of this mess in private. You'd be shocked.

Face it Condoboy, this goose is cooked.

Oh and btw:

if there is a market crash.

Too late for IFS pal!

 

[The Condo Observer]

I noticed your name is Condoboy and not Condoman.

Regular people will be fine. They budgeted properly, live in their homes, and typically were more conservative when they decided to buy a home in the first place.

Flippers, of which you are obviously one, are infectious market destroyers. If you were around long around back then you would know that in the late eighties Harborfront condos, of which most would agree are pretty desirable, sunk like a stone because they were dominated by flippers. Same thing will happen now. You won't be able to give away a unit down there come the Spring time 2009. Ask a Big 6 banker what he thinks of this mess in private. You'd be shocked.

Face it Condoboy, this goose is cooked.

Oh and btw:


Too late for IFS pal!

Urbanation estimates that about 70 percent of condo sales are to end users. That means 30 percent are "investor" purchasers. Of the 30 percent, some are "buy and hold" investors who keep their purchases as part of a diversified portfolio which includes equities, debt instruments, real estate etc. These people usually rent out their units, so are value-investors purchasing in desirable neighbourhoods, and betting on long term capital appreciation. The balance of the 30 percent are flippers. Flipping is not as easy as it used to be - most developers have anti-flipping clauses , so to speak embedded in the sales agreement. This means that investors who want to re sell for profit, have to go through the closing process, incurr legal fees and transfer taxes etc, then list their units for sale and pay 6 percent commission! FLIPPING IS AN EXPENSIVE PROPOSITION NOWADAYS.

All these factors make our market relatively stable.

 

[Quanttrader]

Of the 30 percent, some are "buy and hold" investors who keep their purchases as part of a diversified portfolio which includes equities, debt instruments, real estate etc. These people usually rent out their units, so are value-investors purchasing in desirable neighbourhoods, and betting on long term capital appreciation. .

A. I don't believe Urbanation- they work for the developers

B. Diversified portfolio? Huh? Tell me how owning something that you have to feed every month in the hopes that you can sell it at some point in the future for a profit is a good and safe place to put your savings? That stupidity is what got us here in the first place!

An investment pays you! Not vice versa. Hoping for capital appreciation on something is speculating. Like gambling. But you can't pull your chips when you feel like going home. No liquidity. You are screwed.


Our market is relatively stable relatively. So it only falls 30% (which is only another 14% right?) instead of 50% like other markets.

Just my opinion. I'm sure I'm wrong and housing goes back to 10% annual appreciation from here.

 

[condoboy]

A. I don't believe Urbanation- they work for the developers

B. Diversified portfolio? Huh? Tell me how owning something that you have to feed every month in the hopes that you can sell it at some point in the future for a profit is a good and safe place to put your savings? That stupidity is what got us here in the first place!

An investment pays you! Not vice versa. Hoping for capital appreciation on something is speculating. Like gambling. But you can't pull your chips when you feel like going home. No liquidity. You are screwed.


Our market is relatively stable relatively. So it only falls 30% (which is only another 14% right?) instead of 50% like other markets.

Just my opinion. I'm sure I'm wrong and housing goes back to 10% annual appreciation from here.

It all depends on risk management Quanttrader and how much one is willing and able to risk in order to yield a profit. Some people buy stocks, some invest in income properties, some people buy properties and some go to Casino Rama. Nothing in life is free and I've never heard of an investment of any kind that doesn't require a certain amount of capital up front. "Condoboy" is more indeering to my nature (gemini) and "Condoman" sounded more like something Jim Carey would have done a skit on in the show "In Living Colour" ...

 

[daveto]

My read is that Condoboy seems like a nice enough kid who has made what would ordinarily be a decent investment in recently buying a condo downtown, and is desperately holding out hope that things will turn around and he won't get creamed.

But for the grace of god, there go any of us (myself included).

There is no point in trying to reason with him, because the truth for him is simply much too unpleasant to accept.

It's not his fault, he's just gotten unlucky. (like hundreds of thousands of others)

My advice to him is to bail on his deposit (it was pre-production wasn't it CB?), and consider himself lucky

 

[condoboy]

My read is that Condoboy seems like a nice enough kid who has made what would ordinarily be a decent investment in recently buying a condo downtown, and is desperately holding out hope that things will turn around and he won't get creamed.

But for the grace of god, there go any of us (myself included).

There is no point in trying to reason with him, because the truth for him is simply much too unpleasant to accept.

It's not his fault, he's just gotten unlucky. (like hundreds of thousands of others)

My advice to him is to bail on his deposit (it was pre-production wasn't it CB?), and consider himself lucky

I would rather lose the shirt off my back than line the pockets of some blood sucking landlord (who gives a rat's ass about his tenants) and is salivating at the thought of a market crash....I am not a flipper or investor as many people on this forum believe. However growing up as a kid of immigrant parents from Europe I watched my parents struggle and only begin to invest in themselves with the purchase of their first home...after years of renting and fear of buying because of people that told them how much of a HUGE risk it was to buy...I told myself a long time ago, that same thing was NOT going to happen to me!

 

[yyzer]

a dip in the market brings out all the loonytoons like Quanttrader...he sounds like a very young man who desperately wants to validate his extreme views...

but I'll tell ya, I have been around a long time, in fact I was trading stocks actively back in the 1980's, while he was probably still in diapers... and I learned firsthand, there are very very few people who have ever gotten rich trading stocks, but there are also very many who have made good decisions by investing in their own home...don't be swayed by alarmist fools...

Take it from someone who has experience; there are two types of people in the world at age 50 - those who own their own home, and are set financially, and those who have rented all their lives, and are screwed....it's really very simple...

 

[Shtopor]

I personally agree with previous poster.I would go further cause I think that in stock trading those who has insider info are 'having' all the rest (read this as BIG eats small). In summer of 2006 I was watching CNBC and they were interviewing the guy who just sold his property for 3 mln. in USA and moved to rental. They (reporters) made some good laugh about his move. I disagreed with them as I believed that guy made a right decision. Time proved he was right. RE is just another commodity which goes up and down. 5% down and low interest rates (and mortgages accordingly) increased pool of buyers tremendously. They will be jumping out in droves when their property drops 20% or more ( rightfully so ) bringing prices even lower. What many here who ownes RE don't understand they bought in in RE on uptick (2005-2007) and that is a big NO in investing/trading. You can make money in any market only if you stick to "buy low sell high".

 

[lowesthangingfruit]

I would rather lose the shirt off my back than line the pockets of some blood sucking landlord (who gives a rat's ass about his tenants) and is salivating at the thought of a market crash....I am not a flipper or investor as many people on this forum believe. However growing up as a kid of immigrant parents from Europe I watched my parents struggle and only begin to invest in themselves with the purchase of their first home...after years of renting and fear of buying because of people that told them how much of a HUGE risk it was to buy...I told myself a long time ago, that same thing was NOT going to happen to me!

Such a convicted view point with no flexibility based on emotions is very dangerous CB.

But just out of curiosity, if you are really a buy and hold kinda of guy, why do you care if your property goes up or down 30%. It's irrelevant if your going to hold it through several market cycles as you imply since your not a flipper nor investor.

 

[lowesthangingfruit]

a dip in the market brings out all the loonytoons like Quanttrader...he sounds like a very young man who desperately wants to validate his extreme views...

but I'll tell ya, I have been around a long time, in fact I was trading stocks actively back in the 1980's, while he was probably still in diapers... and I learned firsthand, there are very very few people who have ever gotten rich trading stocks, but there are also very many who have made good decisions by investing in their own home...don't be swayed by alarmist fools...

Take it from someone who has experience; there are two types of people in the world at age 50 - those who own their own home, and are set financially, and those who have rented all their lives, and are screwed....it's really very simple...

I ain't 50 yet,...but as far as I know, the equity markets long term have outpaced the RE markets hands down.

So either your a really bad equity investor or a really good RE investor.

 

[condoboy]

Such a convicted view point with no flexibility based on emotions is very dangerous CB.

But just out of curiosity, if you are really a buy and hold kinda of guy, why do you care if your property goes up or down 30%. It's irrelevant if your going to hold it through several market cycles as you imply since your not a flipper nor investor.

You answered your own question with your first statement (flexibility) and diddn't even realize it...

 

[Chuck]

It is totally and completely wrong to state that those who chose to rent are, by definition, making a poor financial decision. Whether you rent or whether you own, the most responsible thing you can do financially is live within your means, and put aside money each month for the future.

I made a conscious decision to rent rather than to own. When you add up condo fees, property taxes, interest on the mortgage, and utilities, the "money down the drain" factor of owning a condo is essentially the same as my current situation as a renter. Monthly expenses are often less when you rent, therefore the responsible renter will put that money directly into a savings account or RRSP and over a lifetime, they will accumulate an equal amount of wealth as an owner.

If you're not convinced, go and ask the millions of people who are upside down on their mortgage if blindly jumping into the real estate market was the right financial decision.

 

[Quanttrader]

Take it from someone who has experience; there are two types of people in the world at age 50 - those who own their own home, and are set financially, and those who have rented all their lives, and are screwed....it's really very simple...

Hey YY- my karma ate your dogma pal! Open up that rigid brain a yers man! I know centimillionaire renters (in new york) and insolvent owners of multi-million dollars homes (los angeles).

I got plenty of experience. And I don't mind paying my landlord a fair price for the accommodation he's providing me. To overlook this market inefficiency is all ego. Drop yours and you will thrive!

 

[Quanttrader]

I ain't 50 yet,...but as far as I know, the equity markets long term have outpaced the RE markets hands down.

So either your a really bad equity investor or a really good RE investor.

Not after this month is through I'm sure