Toronto Park Towns Bayview and Sheppard | 13.41m | 4s | Broccolini | CMV

[drum118]

That is the hope. Unfortunately, this area remains very car-centric. The hope was that Concord's Park Place would have caused a larger spike in ridership at Bessarion, but the fact is - most people in this area still drive. There is no parking available in Concord Park Place and a high demand for parking spots. Being right next to the 401, people in this area will not give up their cars.

This project let alone Concord Park Place shows the city need to stop using high parking spot ratio and start reducing them if there any hope of improving ridership for Bessarion. Don't expect many new residents from here will be using the subway.

Since both project like most on Sheppard, Cars will be in demand with the 401 next to it and close to 404/Don Valley Parking lot.

Very sad to see a low density project here and not much hope for it.

Concord Park is a slow moving site to the point they are greening it so it wouldn't look so dead. Been over a year that the hole was dug for the next phase and still not completed with no one on site this year so far for it.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

This project let alone Concord Park Place shows the city need to stop using high parking spot ratio and start reducing them if there any hope of improving ridership for Bessarion. Don't expect many new residents from here will be using the subway.

Since both project like most on Sheppard, Cars will be in demand with the 401 next to it and close to 404/Don Valley Parking lot.

Very sad to see a low density project here and not much hope for it.

Concord Park is a slow moving site to the point they are greening it so it wouldn't look so dead. Been over a year that the hole was dug for the next phase and still not completed with no one on site this year so far for it.

City doesn't have a high ratio of parking spots per units,... it's less than 1 parking spot per unit,.... The interesting aspect about parking spots at ConcordParkPlace is that they found underground water level is too high and thus that's probably one reason why its being delayed,... it'll now cost about $50,000 on average to build each underground parking spot at ConcordParkPlace,.... how much does developer charge for these $50,000 parking spaces? If basic economics doesn't deter some new residents from driving, I don't know what will.

That said,... this isn't downtown where people can walk or bike to work. Since amalgamation, 17 years ago, there's only been 1 full office tower built in North York Centre (along with a few token floors of condo offices) compared to about 60 new condo towers,..... in this area along Sheppard between Bayview and Leslie, no new offices,... but lots of new condo towers,.... people are working further from work,.... For decades the high number of new residents to the area (3 to 5 thousands per year) greatly outstripes the number of new jobs locally,.... last year, Ward23 in North York Centre lost over 500 jobs,.... So disappointed that a project like ConcordParkPlace right on the intersection of Sheppard Stubway line and GO train line with highway 401 interchanges nearby is all condo tower without any office buildings,.... still shocked, proposed CanadianTire office tower became condo tower,....

North York condos generally have an average of about 2.5 people per unit (high than downtown),.... thus, one usually drive and other TTC,....

 

[cruzin4u]

I was actually curious to know what had happened with Opus. I initially thought many investors backed out of the project after realizing that they have not made much money off their Discovery I+II investments.

I am also curious how Mountain Co-Op will deal with traffic volumes. Could we be seeing the same issue that plagues Sporting Life on Yonge St., here?

I have seen some new office type developments in the area, but definitely not large volume. The new church office building next to the Canada Post does offer office space, albeit not too much. Then to the East of Shane Baghai's St. Gabriel, one of the older rental apartments is for sale and suggests retail/office space. But I agree, there is really very little new office space being offered.

 

[someMidTowner]

 

[bizzy]

Delayed occupancy until mid-2016 as per the builder.

 

[pdcstream]

I am also curious how Mountain Co-Op will deal with traffic volumes. Could we be seeing the same issue that plagues Sporting Life on Yonge St., here?

I don't see this happening here. The parking lot at Sporting Life is undersized for its store. So, cars waiting for a parking spot spill out onto the street. WIth MEC, there will be plenty of underground parking. While there may be heavy traffic at times on Sheppard, this would be largely unrelated to the store as there should be no street obstruction from cars of the store's patrons.

I have seen some new office type developments in the area, but definitely not large volume. The new church office building next to the Canada Post does offer office space, albeit not too much. Then to the East of Shane Baghai's St. Gabriel, one of the older rental apartments is for sale and suggests retail/office space. But I agree, there is really very little new office space being offered.

Much of the earlier office buildings were built when North York could give targeted tax breaks and incentives. Of course, since amalgamation, that's no longer the case. But that's not the only reason: There was also expectation that the Sheppard subway would be extended much further. As it is, it's not useful; certainly not from the West; and from the East, it's too short to be really useful either. If it went to Consumer's Rd. or Victoria Park at least, it could save people an extra 15 minutes from getting stuck behind the cars waiting at the Hwy. 404/DVP on-ramps during rush hours. So, from a employer's perspective, why locate to an area where employees would have trouble reaching?

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I don't see this happening here. The parking lot at Sporting Life is undersized for its store. So, cars waiting for a parking spot spill out onto the street. WIth MEC, there will be plenty of underground parking. While there may be heavy traffic at times on Sheppard, this would be largely unrelated to the store as there should be no street obstruction from cars of the store's patrons.

This site is mid-block,... when it was a garden centre,... during peak season, the garden centre would need to hire 2 paid-duty cops to direct traffic in and out of the store parking lot. I would certainly expect the same here again with the MEC, because it's mid-block,.... cars that come in with right turns must leave with left turns,.. cars that come in with left turns leave with right turns,... Sheppard is a busy arterial road, it's these left turns that need police direction when the store is busy,... this has nothing to do with how much parking spaces they will have,... more because busy store is mid-block without signalized interection.

Well,... as you said, the Sheppard STUBway line is pathetic,.... thus, people in this area will drive.

Much of the earlier office buildings were built when North York could give targeted tax breaks and incentives. Of course, since amalgamation, that's no longer the case. But that's not the only reason: There was also expectation that the Sheppard subway would be extended much further. As it is, it's not useful; certainly not from the West; and from the East, it's too short to be really useful either. If it went to Consumer's Rd. or Victoria Park at least, it could save people an extra 15 minutes from getting stuck behind the cars waiting at the Hwy. 404/DVP on-ramps during rush hours. So, from a employer's perspective, why locate to an area where employees would have trouble reaching?

Huh? So your logic is to extend the Sheppard STUBway to at least Consumer Rd or Victoria Park,.... to attract more office development,.... but there's already office development near Sheppard at between Consumer Rd & Victoria Park,..... that was there even before there was a Sheppard STUBway,....

Anyways, if the current Sheppard STUBway line is too pathetic to attract offices development/tenants,.... why does this same Sheppard STUBway line have no problem attracting all these new residential condo development/tenants?

As per the former City of North York giving tax breaks for office development,.... the city of Toronto now gives tax breaks for office developments,.....

 

[pdcstream]

This site is mid-block,... when it was a garden centre,... during peak season, the garden centre would need to hire 2 paid-duty cops to direct traffic in and out of the store parking lot. I would certainly expect the same here again with the MEC, because it's mid-block,.... cars that come in with right turns must leave with left turns,.. cars that come in with left turns leave with right turns,... Sheppard is a busy arterial road, it's these left turns that need police direction when the store is busy,... this has nothing to do with how much parking spaces they will have,... more because busy store is mid-block without signalized interection.

Well,... as you said, the Sheppard STUBway line is pathetic,.... thus, people in this area will drive.

Point taken about the left turns. There is a difference between the future MEC store (and Park Towns) and Sporting Life. Sporting Life's problem is not easily fixable because of its parking shortage. In the case of MEC, as with any development, the city's transportation department (I forget their proper name) conducted a traffic study to look at its impacts, so as to mitigate any potential problems. I don't what they may have in mind, but, among other things, this could involve adding or moving traffic lights, or adding an eastbound left turn lane. From what I've seen around other developments, at least closer to where I live, they seem to be pretty good at figuring these things out.

Huh? So your logic is to extend the Sheppard STUBway to at least Consumer Rd or Victoria Park,.... to attract more office development,.... but there's already office development near Sheppard at between Consumer Rd & Victoria Park,..... that was there even before there was a Sheppard STUBway,....

Anyways, if the current Sheppard STUBway line is too pathetic to attract offices development/tenants,.... why does this same Sheppard STUBway line have no problem attracting all these new residential condo development/tenants?

As per the former City of North York giving tax breaks for office development,.... the city of Toronto now gives tax breaks for office developments,.....

No, I wasn't meaning to suggest that extending Sheppard to Consumers or Victoria Park would attract more office development - as only a much longer Sheppard subway with a much greater reach could do that - but rather that this extension would at least make it somewhat more useful than it is. This was the intended length of the first phase of the Sheppard subway before it got snipped. Just that short little distance would have been useful in saving 10-15 minutes. OMG, I just passed through that part of Sheppard today, during a late Saturday afternoon, and the traffic was much heavier than one would expect at that time of day and week.

As for the STUBway having no trouble attracting condo development but not office development? Well, having access to the Sheppard subway is a very desirable condo feature because it can be a convenient way to get to work and/or downtown. On the other hand, in order for any office development to be successful it needs to have access to transit and the Sheppard subway doesn't do it. This is the lesson learned from the Canary Wharf development in London from the early 90's. If you build a development with poor or little transit access, you will have few or no tenants. That's what happened to Canary Wharf. It wasn't until the East Docklands Light Rail was under construction that companies started signing leases. That quickly led to the need to extend the London Underground's Jubilee line also out to Canary Wharf. Today, to say that the area around Canary Wharf has exploded with development might be an understatement.

As for tax breaks, I believe - correct me if I'm wrong - that North York's tax breaks were more favourable than the old City of Toronto's before amalgamation. Now, I assume, with tax breaks for office development more or less equal within the City of Toronto, office development will tend to be in the places with the better access to transit (despite the fact that there may not be adequate capacity).

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Point taken about the left turns. There is a difference between the future MEC store (and Park Towns) and Sporting Life. Sporting Life's problem is not easily fixable because of its parking shortage. In the case of MEC, as with any development, the city's transportation department (I forget their proper name) conducted a traffic study to look at its impacts, so as to mitigate any potential problems. I don't what they may have in mind, but, among other things, this could involve adding or moving traffic lights, or adding an eastbound left turn lane. From what I've seen around other developments, at least closer to where I live, they seem to be pretty good at figuring these things out.

Are you talking about these same city of Toronto traffic engineers have ranked 6 intersections along Sheppard Ave in the city's top ten worst intersections for traffic congestions,....
1. Bayview Ave. at Sheppard Ave. E.
2. Yonge St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave.
3. York St., Front St. to Gardiner Expressway
4. Sheppard Ave. W. at Allen Rd.
5. Leslie St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E.
6. Lake Shore Blvd., York St. to Bathurst St.
7. Kennedy Rd., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E.
8. Markham Rd., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E.
9. Dufferin St. at Finch Ave. W.
10. Black Creek Dr. at Lawrence Ave. W.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...fies_top_10_most_congested_intersections.html

Hmmm,... where's the MEC on Sheppard again,... oh, between Bayview and Leslie,... between the #1 worst intersection of Bayview Ave. at Sheppard Ave. E. and the #5 worst intersection of Leslie St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E. and a stone throw from the mother of all worst intersection at #2 - Yonge St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. Oh, but don't worry, these same city traffic engineers that can't figure out how to solve all these traffic congestion issues along Sheppard Ave,.... will spend all their time and resources at figuring out a nice exit for a new MEC store,....

As for the STUBway having no trouble attracting condo development but not office development? Well, having access to the Sheppard subway is a very desirable condo feature because it can be a convenient way to get to work and/or downtown. On the other hand, in order for any office development to be successful it needs to have access to transit and the Sheppard subway doesn't do it. This is the lesson learned from the Canary Wharf development in London from the early 90's. If you build a development with poor or little transit access, you will have few or no tenants. That's what happened to Canary Wharf. It wasn't until the East Docklands Light Rail was under construction that companies started signing leases. That quickly led to the need to extend the London Underground's Jubilee line also out to Canary Wharf. Today, to say that the area around Canary Wharf has exploded with development might be an understatement.

Successful office development need access to good transit???? Don't tell that to all those successfull office complexes in poor transit area of 905,... where large corporations have been setting up large office complexes and campus offices for decades,... like office hubs around Hwy 404 & 7 or along Hurontario in Mississauga or near airport,...

 

[taal]

Successful office development need access to good transit???? Don't tell that to all those successfull office complexes in poor transit area of 905,... where large corporations have been setting up large office complexes and campus offices for decades,... like office hubs around Hwy 404 & 7 or along Hurontario in Mississauga or near airport,...

I'm going to argue this last point; In the 416, it does need to be by good transit due to the commercial tax differential; You'll notice there's been just about 0 office development outside of the hubs in Toronto over the last 20+ years (less a couple government funded projects). I agree in the 905 this isn't a requirement, and while we talk about this changing, many companies are still pushing for custom built campuses.

 

[pdcstream]

Are you talking about these same city of Toronto traffic engineers have ranked 6 intersections along Sheppard Ave in the city's top ten worst intersections for traffic congestions,....
1. Bayview Ave. at Sheppard Ave. E.
2. Yonge St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave.
3. York St., Front St. to Gardiner Expressway
4. Sheppard Ave. W. at Allen Rd.
5. Leslie St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E.
6. Lake Shore Blvd., York St. to Bathurst St.
7. Kennedy Rd., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E.
8. Markham Rd., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E.
9. Dufferin St. at Finch Ave. W.
10. Black Creek Dr. at Lawrence Ave. W.
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...fies_top_10_most_congested_intersections.html

Hmmm,... where's the MEC on Sheppard again,... oh, between Bayview and Leslie,... between the #1 worst intersection of Bayview Ave. at Sheppard Ave. E. and the #5 worst intersection of Leslie St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E. and a stone throw from the mother of all worst intersection at #2 - Yonge St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. Oh, but don't worry, these same city traffic engineers that can't figure out how to solve all these traffic congestion issues along Sheppard Ave,.... will spend all their time and resources at figuring out a nice exit for a new MEC store,....

I am familiar with an older version of this list. This traffic congestion along Sheppard is just that...traffic congestion, but not caused by design flaws with the roads. Rather, the problem is simply the volume of East-West traffic across the top part of the city. Congestion along Sheppard may be a by-product of the traffic volume and congestion on Hwy. 4o1. Arguably, citing an absence of a standardized criteria to make such comparisons, Hwy. 401 is one of, if not the, busiest city-highway(s) in the world. During the rush hours, Finch, Steeles, York Mills/Ellesmere/Wilson are also very busy. One main reason for this is that people don't see buses as a reasonable alternative to driving in these directions, other than for short distances. Also, as I've already said, the Sheppard subway is far too short to be useful in this regard. I don't think we can blame the city's traffic engineers for this. The only problem I expect the traffic engineers to solve here is the problem of left-turns in and out of that driveway.

 

[pdcstream]

Successful office development need access to good transit???? Don't tell that to all those successfull office complexes in poor transit area of 905,... where large corporations have been setting up large office complexes and campus offices for decades,... like office hubs around Hwy 404 & 7 or along Hurontario in Mississauga or near airport,...

Those successful office complexes that you cite are, for the most part, still relatively low density areas and not all that unlike North York Centre. What they all have in common is access to highways. In the case of North York Centre and Sheppard, congestion and lack of free capacity on the '401' has constrained access and thus new growth. 25-30 years ago, traffic on the reverse commutes of the Gardiner/QEW and DVP/404 was non-existent. These areas you cite had been fairly accessible...by car...and that's why development had happened in these areas. Today, however, the reverse commutes are getting busier and busier, so much so that they are not so far off from being equal to the regular commutes. And when or if they do become equally congested in both directions, I predict, growth will likewise be constrained for these areas.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

I am familiar with an older version of this list. This traffic congestion along Sheppard is just that...traffic congestion, but not caused by design flaws with the roads. Rather, the problem is simply the volume of East-West traffic across the top part of the city. Congestion along Sheppard may be a by-product of the traffic volume and congestion on Hwy. 4o1. Arguably, citing an absence of a standardized criteria to make such comparisons, Hwy. 401 is one of, if not the, busiest city-highway(s) in the world. During the rush hours, Finch, Steeles, York Mills/Ellesmere/Wilson are also very busy. One main reason for this is that people don't see buses as a reasonable alternative to driving in these directions, other than for short distances. Also, as I've already said, the Sheppard subway is far too short to be useful in this regard. I don't think we can blame the city's traffic engineers for this. The only problem I expect the traffic engineers to solve here is the problem of left-turns in and out of that driveway.

If "Congestion along Sheppard may be a by-product of the traffic volume and congestion on Hwy. 4o1.",.... then one should expect York Mills/Ellesmere/Wilson to also have a similar level of congestion to Sheppard Ave since Highway 401 mainly runs parallel between Sheppard Ave and York Mills/Ellesmere/Wilson,... except West of Bathurst where Highway 401 is south of Wilson (sandwiched with Lawrence Ave) and even further away from Sheppard and thus west of Bathurst, we should expect Wilson to have even more congestion than Sheppard. But yet, none of the intersection along YorkMills/Ellesmere/Wilson even makes the top 10 worst congestion intersection in Toronto,....

1. Bayview Ave. at Sheppard Ave. E.
2. Yonge St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave.
3. York St., Front St. to Gardiner Expressway
4. Sheppard Ave. W. at Allen Rd.
5. Leslie St., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E.
6. Lake Shore Blvd., York St. to Bathurst St.
7. Kennedy Rd., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E.
8. Markham Rd., Highway 401 to Sheppard Ave. E.
9. Dufferin St. at Finch Ave. W.
10. Black Creek Dr. at Lawrence Ave. W.
www.thestar.com/news/gta/2013/05/08/toronto_identifies_top_10_most_congested_intersections.html

But 6 intersections along Sheppard Ave are amongst the top 10 worst intersection in Toronto,.. why? There's a lot more high density development along Sheppard Ave VS York Mills/Ellesmere/Wilson,.... and all these high density developments create high volume of left turns at these busy intersections along Sheppard Ave as their occupants are driving between Sheppard Ave to and from Highway 401,.... yes, higher volumes of left turns are the main issues,... which is where our discussion started since this site is mid-block without intersection to service it! And I obviously don't have much faith on the city's traffic engineers to provide an adequate left turn solution at this site or any other site along Sheppard Ave,.... and that's from past experiences!

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Those successful office complexes that you cite are, for the most part, still relatively low density areas and not all that unlike North York Centre. What they all have in common is access to highways. In the case of North York Centre and Sheppard, congestion and lack of free capacity on the '401' has constrained access and thus new growth. 25-30 years ago, traffic on the reverse commutes of the Gardiner/QEW and DVP/404 was non-existent. These areas you cite had been fairly accessible...by car...and that's why development had happened in these areas. Today, however, the reverse commutes are getting busier and busier, so much so that they are not so far off from being equal to the regular commutes. And when or if they do become equally congested in both directions, I predict, growth will likewise be constrained for these areas.

If "In the case of North York Centre and Sheppard, congestion and lack of free capacity on the '401' has constrained access and thus new (office) growth." then we should NOT be seeing any office growth in downtown Toronto now since 6-8 lanes Gardiner Expressway and DVP would be more lacking in free capacity than 14-18 lanes Highway 401. According to your logic that entire South Core financial office area and any new office areas downtown should NOT even exist,....

If "Today, however, the reverse commutes are getting busier and busier, so much so that they are not so far off from being equal to the regular commutes. And when or if they do become equally congested in both directions, I predict, growth will likewise be constrained for these areas.",.... then,... again,... According to your logic that entire South Core financial office area and any new office areas downtown should NOT even exist,....

 

[Edward Skira]

But 6 intersections along Sheppard Ave are amongst the top 10 worst intersection in Toronto,.. why? There's a lot more high density development along Sheppard Ave VS York Mills/Ellesmere/Wilson,.... and all these high density developments create high volume of left turns at these busy intersections along Sheppard Ave as their occupants are driving between Sheppard Ave to and from Highway 401,.... yes, higher volumes of left turns are the main issues,... which is where our discussion started since this site is mid-block without intersection to service it! And I obviously don't have much faith on the city's traffic engineers to provide an adequate left turn solution at this site or any other site along Sheppard Ave,.... and that's from past experiences!

More people head north from the 401 than south. And by north I mean heading past Steeles and beyond. Means more congestion on Sheppard than York Mills.