Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

TheTigerMaster said:
I disagree. The big benefit of following the street grid is that the King Streetcar can be replaced
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I disagree. An underground rapid transit service should never replace a local at-grade transit service. A King DRL would definitely remove many of the longer-haul trips on the King Streetcar, but I would hope there would still be a need for local transit on King. I can see many of the streetcars currently running on King shifted to Queen, but it would be unfortunate to have streetcar service on King discontinued completely.
 
you would probably be looking at a 30 minute service on the 504 if it was to be retained, simply not worth it. 15 minute bus service like on Yonge is fine.
 
dunkalunk said:
I disagree. An underground rapid transit service should never replace a local at-grade transit service. A King DRL would definitely remove many of the longer-haul trips on the King Streetcar, but I would hope there would still be a need for local transit on King. I can see many of the streetcars currently running on King shifted to Queen, but it would be unfortunate to have streetcar service on King discontinued completely.
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King is a 4-5 minutes walk from Queen, and why exactly do you think a King Streetcar service has to be kept even though there is a subway running beneath it and a local streetcar service 5 minutes north of it? I can't fathom your rationale. Maybe Adelaide and Richmond need their separate street car as well?

I understand the necessity of local service, but to argue people can't walk 350 meters from Queen st is not reasonable.
 
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innsertnamehere said:
you would probably be looking at a 30 minute service on the 504 if it was to be retained, simply not worth it. 15 minute bus service like on Yonge is fine.
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As much as I'd love to retain streetcar service on King, I would be OK with the streetcar being replaced with a bus service. Complete elimination of local service would force the subway to serve two contrary goals and we'd end up with a line just as slow as the Bloor-Danforth. The fewer stations we need to construct, the less expensive the line will be on the whole.
 
ksun said:
King is a 4-5 minutes walk from Queen, and why exactly do you think a King Streetcar service has to be kept even though there is a subway running beneath it and a local streetcar service 5 minutes north of it? I can't fathom your rationale. Maybe Adelaide and Richmond need their separate street car as well?

I understand the necessity of local service, but to argue people can't walk 350 meters from Queen st is not reasonable.
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The walk from King to Queen is closer to 400m if you are actually wanting to walk to a streetcar stop. If you are coming from some of the southern sections of Parkdale, the Fashion District, or St. Lawrence the walk is closer to 700m.

Regardless of whether or not there are still streetcars running on King (or even if the DRL were to run under King instead of Wellington or Front) the tracks on King are an asset that the city should not simply decommissioned. If the stops are placed an appropriate distance apart from eachother (~1000-1500m), there is no reason why streetcars should not still be able to draw riders even at a third of the current frequency of every 4 minutes (every 12 mins).

This comes back to my original point. An underground rapid transit service should never replace a local at-grade transit service. (at least directly)
 
To me the stop spacing along the DRL should be more like 500-700 meters, it can effectively serve local traffic as well as serve the function of the DRL. To me the DRL along King should act just as the yonge line does today, closely packed trains offering both local and regional purposes with a small surface bus service to serve ultra-local demand.
 
dunkalunk said:
If the stops are placed an appropriate distance apart from each other (~1000-1500m), . (at least directly)
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based on Toronto's experience, it is almost impossible for it to space it that far apart on King.
I think 700-800m is appropriate. 1000M+ probably for the very suburban part north of Eglinton.
 
dunkalunk said:
The walk from King to Queen is closer to 400m if you are actually wanting to walk to a streetcar stop. If you are coming from some of the southern sections of Parkdale, the Fashion District, or St. Lawrence the walk is closer to 700m.

Regardless of whether or not there are still streetcars running on King (or even if the DRL were to run under King instead of Wellington or Front) the tracks on King are an asset that the city should not simply decommissioned. If the stops are placed an appropriate distance apart from eachother (~1000-1500m), there is no reason why streetcars should not still be able to draw riders even at a third of the current frequency of every 4 minutes (every 12 mins).

This comes back to my original point. An underground rapid transit service should never replace a local at-grade transit service. (at least directly)
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This is DOWNTOWN Toronto we're talking about. Wherever the stations will be, it'll be UNDER the Yonge-University line. That means a longer trip just for using the steps, escalator, or elevators. Those steps and escalators will have to be angled, at best, and long. (The Wheaton station in Washington, D.C. has a 70 m or 230 feet escalator for a vertical of 35 m. It takes 2 minutes and 45 minutes to ride that.) The stairs might have flights of steps circling around an elevator shaft, but most likely they'll would be used only in an emergency. I'll take the streetcar for short trips in the area, if it takes too long to use escaltors (and if they're working).

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Maybe 500-700 in the core (Bathurst to Don River) but outside of this area, spacing really needs to be further apart. The Yonge Line between Bloor and Eglinton averages closer to 700-1000m. North of that, closer to 2km.
 
yes thats what I meant. Thats the only portion that is replacing the 504 anyway. The only deep stations will be the one or two around the YUS line anyway, they can shortly jump up to "regular" level after that.
 
Its about 130 m from Wellington to King, similar lengths between King to Adelaide. If half of that distance is used by one set of escalators, one could get to a mezzanine level or one of the PATH tunnels to do a walking transfer using PRESTO.

Scotia-FCDC-path-map-2012.jpg
 
dunkalunk said:
This comes back to my original point. An underground rapid transit service should never replace a local at-grade transit service. (at least directly)
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I really don't think this is the case and we have two good counter cases in Toronto on Yonge and Bloor.

How the DRL interacts with existing surface transit is, of course, kind of ambiguous at this point for a number of reasons.

As a general principal the more a surface route overlaps with the DRL, and the extent to which a the DRL has BD-style spacing in that segment, the greater odds are of getting replaced.

Second, surface routes should be altered (within practicality) to integrate with the DRL rather than the other way around since they're inherently more flexible. For instance, maybe planners decide the DRL should follow King east of the CBD, but Queen west of the CBD. In that case the 501 and 504 could be merged into a kind of 'downtown' route which would travel along King West and Queen East, crossing up Church or something.
 
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