Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

[ponyboy]

I still think it would be a huge mistake for Toronto to make the DRL with third track. They should use catenary subways so that RER could also use the service. Expanding the DRL north of Eglinton would be a breeze and MUCH cheaper using the current Richmond Hill rail line than tunneling to Sheppard. Also it gives RER a much needed relief thru the core than relying on just Union. RER will probably overtake the subways in ridership within 30 years and Toronto has to plan for that.

I agree, Toronto could definitely better use existing resources by sharing track and corridors. One issue is that the high population density along Don Mills north of Lawrence would not be well served if the DRL joins onto the existing rail line north of Lawrence. This could be addressed cheaply with high frequency circulator buses devoted to bringing people from these high density areas to the nearest DRL or Sheppard line station (free to use for quick loading). A RER compatible DRL that plugs into the existing lines north of Lawrence is worth considering for regional connectivity. The trains on this line would be much shorter than GO. Another option others have suggested is to tunnel up past Finch turn left, and cross the hydro corridor to get onto the rail line at Old Cummer. The DRL could replace the Richmond Hill line (the part south of Finch or Lawrence) sometime in the future if it can plug into the rail, and the flood prone tracks along the southern Don River can someday be removed, opening up the river to downtown by removing it as a barrier.

Here is a recent density map (source: http://www.canadianurbanism.ca/transforming-open-data-into-knowledge/)

 

[WislaHD]

and the flood prone tracks along the southern Don River can someday be removed, opening up the river to downtown by removing it as a barrier.

Or, be used to create Toronto's first cycling superhighway between Finch Hydro Corridor and Martin Goodman Trail.

 

[jaybe]

Related to the comment above by Ponyboy, has there been a comparison or evaluation of extending the DRL North past Sheppard to Hwy 7 with building the Yonge extension from Finch to Richmond Hill?

A couple of thoughts on why a DRL super long (DRL-SL) to Hwy 7 might make sense:
- It would service Seneca College at Don Mills and Finch.
- If routed under the 404, it could have a stop at Woodbine and Steeles. There must be more than 10,000 jobs (IBM, BMO, Extendicare, etc) within walking distance.
- A stop around Esna Park/John Street would improve transit for 000's more workers
- A final stop at Highway 7 would connect with Viva and provide reasonably quick access to Markham City Centre, Richmond Hill City Centre
- A DRL-SL would act as a feed to Downtown, similar to the TYSSE in Vaughan. It would better serve downtown bound transit users in NW Scarborough.
- If aligned closer to the 404, a DRL-SL would be an option for downtown bound commuters who use the 404/DVP.

This seems like a reasonable option when compared with the Yonge Subway extension which would primarily service residential and retail stops on Yonge street north of Finch. People who live near Yonge in Richmond Hill or North York would have 3 options to downtown - go south to the Yonge Finch station, west to the TYSSE or go east to the DRL-SL. The Yonge corridor north of Finch, could serviced by an LRT (similar to the Hurontario LRT) that could be extended north to Newmarket.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Related to the comment above by Ponyboy, has there been a comparison or evaluation of extending the DRL North past Sheppard to Hwy 7 with building the Yonge extension from Finch to Richmond Hill?

A couple of thoughts on why a DRL super long (DRL-SL) to Hwy 7 might make sense:
- It would service Seneca College at Don Mills and Finch.
- If routed under the 404, it could have a stop at Woodbine and Steeles. There must be more than 10,000 jobs (IBM, BMO, Extendicare, etc) within walking distance.
- A stop around Esna Park/John Street would improve transit for 000's more workers
- A final stop at Highway 7 would connect with Viva and provide reasonably quick access to Markham City Centre, Richmond Hill City Centre
- A DRL-SL would act as a feed to Downtown, similar to the TYSSE in Vaughan. It would better serve downtown bound transit users in NW Scarborough.
- If aligned closer to the 404, a DRL-SL would be an option for downtown bound commuters who use the 404/DVP.

This seems like a reasonable option when compared with the Yonge Subway extension which would primarily service residential and retail stops on Yonge street north of Finch. People who live near Yonge in Richmond Hill or North York would have 3 options to downtown - go south to the Yonge Finch station, west to the TYSSE or go east to the DRL-SL. The Yonge corridor north of Finch, could serviced by an LRT (similar to the Hurontario LRT) that could be extended north to Newmarket.

Although this is about the Relief Line, I think this belongs in the Fantasy Maps thread. Anyways, the optimal termination of the “DRL-SL” would be either Hwy7/Town Centre or Unionville GO (Enterprise/Kennedy). A termination at Leslie or Woodbine is unnecessary they are proposed/potential rapid transit corridors for Viva.

 

[BurlOak]

Related to the comment above by Ponyboy, has there been a comparison or evaluation of extending the DRL North past Sheppard to Hwy 7 with building the Yonge extension from Finch to Richmond Hill?

A couple of thoughts on why a DRL super long (DRL-SL) to Hwy 7 might make sense:
- It would service Seneca College at Don Mills and Finch.
- If routed under the 404, it could have a stop at Woodbine and Steeles. There must be more than 10,000 jobs (IBM, BMO, Extendicare, etc) within walking distance.
- A stop around Esna Park/John Street would improve transit for 000's more workers
- A final stop at Highway 7 would connect with Viva and provide reasonably quick access to Markham City Centre, Richmond Hill City Centre
- A DRL-SL would act as a feed to Downtown, similar to the TYSSE in Vaughan. It would better serve downtown bound transit users in NW Scarborough.
- If aligned closer to the 404, a DRL-SL would be an option for downtown bound commuters who use the 404/DVP.

This seems like a reasonable option when compared with the Yonge Subway extension which would primarily service residential and retail stops on Yonge street north of Finch. People who live near Yonge in Richmond Hill or North York would have 3 options to downtown - go south to the Yonge Finch station, west to the TYSSE or go east to the DRL-SL. The Yonge corridor north of Finch, could serviced by an LRT (similar to the Hurontario LRT) that could be extended north to Newmarket.

Even if Yonge was extended - imagine the nightmare construction scenario with Yonge dug up and buses still trying to get to Finch station. It is almost that the DRL needs to be able to handle a significant number of travelers while this is going on.
Not sure if i like the word "underground". I would almost think think this entire line would be elevated after crossing next to the Millwood bridge, or after crossing the West Don.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Even if Yonge was extended - imagine the nightmare construction scenario with Yonge dug up and buses still trying to get to Finch station. It is almost that the DRL needs to be able to handle a significant number of travelers while this is going on.
Not sure if i like the word "underground". I would almost think think this entire line would be elevated after crossing next to the Millwood bridge, or after crossing the West Don.

Is there any possibility that the Millwood bridge will be replaced by a bridge similar to the Bloor Viaduct to include an bottom level for trains?

 

[W. K. Lis]

Is there any possibility that the Millwood bridge will be replaced by a bridge similar to the Bloor Viaduct to include an bottom level for trains?

See this thread and this link.

 

[BurlOak]

See this thread and this link.

Sheppard subway is also a bridge over the East Don River (just east of Leslie) - not under the roadway bridge though.
The early drawings I recall from Yonge Subway Extension had the subway under the deck of the bridge.

I imagine they could do the same with the SSE at Highland Creek (just north of Lawrence) if they actually considered shallow construction.
If Sheppard West ever gets done, they would likely (if they are smart) do the same thing over the West Don River (between Yonge and Bathurst).

That Millwood bridge is now 90 years old so it doesn't make sense to put new infrastructure on a bridge that is very near* the end of its life.

They could likely have a new bridge built with 9 months construction (did you actually read that link - this bridge, Hogg's Hollow Bridge (now 401), Credit River Bridge (QEW), Argyle Street Bridge (Caledonia) etc. etc. were each built in less than a year).

(* - I don't actually know the condition, but many of bridges in this vintage or even newer are not in great shape).

 

[Kitsune]

The Leaside bridge is also deemed Historic - so it likely will not be torn down. Although come 2030 wont the bridge need another rehab ? We should be hearing about the first DRL north meetings soon if it follows the same timelines as DRL south.

 

[BurlOak]

The Leaside bridge is also deemed Historic - so it likely will not be torn down. Although come 2030 wont the bridge need another rehab ? We should be hearing about the first DRL north meetings soon if it follows the same timelines as DRL south.

Historic does not mean it can't be torn down. It may mean a bit more consultation (more $), or it may mean some type of sympathetic design (more $).
But overall, this was a very utilitarian bridge with no features worthy of retention so I can't imagine much public opposition to its demolition. Compare to Prince Edward viaduct (Bloor St.).

built 1927 vs. 1918
overall length 440m vs. 494m
main span 38m vs. 86m
parallel chords vs. arched.

I'd say replace it with whatever bridge is cheapest (or close to it)*, and put a display panel about the old bridge.

* - depending on exactly what minimum spans you want to see in the bridge and is it a combined bridge for transit and vehicles or are there separate structures. If you want trains underdeck, then likely go with a steel truss with spans maybe double what they are now. Alternatively, you could go with twin 5m deep concrete boxes (spanning up to 100m) with the rail inside - but likely more costly. Separate bridges are the cheapest, but likely the most ugly.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Honestly I don't think they will replace the Millwood bridge. I see it being some sort of new cable stayed structure for the subway line directly adjacent. The subway would have to do an awkward jog to match the alignment of the Millwood bridge - and as already outlined, it would likely need total replacement. Just doesn't make sense, they will likely construct a new structure directly to the west that better lines the subway up to come off of Pape and connect onto Overlea.

The Yonge subway extension bridge will be integrated with the road - the road grade is going to be raised up significantly and the subway will essentially go where the road is today.

Also, I've always thought the natural end point of the DRL to be Seneca College. It would intercept the Finch bus, and service a large post secondary institution with only a small extension from Sheppard. Anything past that is getting much lower return per km in terms of what is serviced.

 

[smallspy]

That Millwood bridge is now 90 years old so it doesn't make sense to put new infrastructure on a bridge that is very near* the end of its life.

The Millwood bridge has seen a couple of extremely major rebuilds - the most recent about 15 years ago or so - and so still has quite a bit of life left in it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[BurlOak]

The Millwood bridge has seen a couple of extremely major rebuilds - the most recent about 15 years ago or so - and so still has quite a bit of life left in it.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

Bridge rehab cycles are typically 25 to 30 years. If this gets built 10 years from now - it matches the rehab cycle quite nicely.

PS. That being said, unless the DRL uses vehicles that can handle tight curves, it is more likely that the subway would continue straight up Minton Place and across the valley about 180m west of the Millwood Bridge. A couple of expropriations needed though. The vehicle bridge would be a completely separate exercise

 

[Kitsune]

Also, I've always thought the natural end point of the DRL to be Seneca College. It would intercept the Finch bus, and service a large post secondary institution with only a small extension from Sheppard. Anything past that is getting much lower return per km in terms of what is serviced.

It really should goto Seneca - I remember my days there and the 39E being a sardine can at times. I'm sure someone will bring this up at one of first couple DRL north meetings. Also, with the sears fairview location now closing - does that make it easier/quicker to redevelop the mall into condos?

 

[WislaHD]

I wouldn't say so. It means there is incentive to revonate the space into a smaller anchor and other stores, just like the former Sears space at the Eaton Centre. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised if they got Uniqlo to take a part of that space too.

That being said, the parking structure connected to Sears is now rather disconnected from the rest of the mall. You got to deal with a subway station too. I do hope that City Planning is in regular contact with CF over what a Sheppard interchange station on the Relief Line North means to that corner.