Toronto Ontario Line 3 | ?m | ?s

Well how many trains will stop and at which stations remains to be seen. Lines also converge in the west end between the airport and Union.
There's no plans I'm aware of to run RER on the airport line - though I guess there is some benefit to those at Mount Dennis and Bloor.

Between Lansdowne and Union: the Kitchener line, Barrie line, and UP Express. That becomes 4 lines where they join Lakeshore. Granted, the current plan is to not have all stations serve all lines so it's not as simple as adding all the lines together.
True - but ignoring the UP service, there's no actual stations in any of those sections. There's also the Milton line that runs alongside the Kitchener line, to well north of Bloor - but they didn't even build a platform at Bloor for the track that they use. There's also the proposed Bolton GO line, but it's not planned for RER.

Perhaps there will a new Smarttrack station in there somewhere - I've lost track of the current proposals, they seem to trim the station list, every time I see a report. And if they do build one at Bathurst Yard, I don't think it would be a stop on the Lakeshore West track, due to the location.

Another wrinkle is the Smarttrack plan as it currently stands would increase the frequencies of the Stouffville and Kitchener RER lines beyond the 15 minute base case. So at Unilever Station for example you could see a train every 5 minutes or so.[/QUOTE]Would it? Where does it say that? I got the impression that skip-stopping was on the table.
 
The Subways vs LRT debate is evolving to a Subways vs RER debate :eek:
As well it should. If Toronto has funding to build subways, by all means do it. But if the Province is footing the bill, it should be in the interests of Provincial taxpayers, not at their expense for the sake of Torontonians focusing on what only directly affects them without considering the best way of doing it for all concerned.

The essential point is to build the Relief Line, with Provincial and Federal money, forward compatible as a regionally connected infrastructure. What fault could anyone find with that? And that means building the tunnel (and the TTC has been doing this of late) 6.4 metres or more cross-section to accept RER EMU trains in future. Until passenger load dictates the use of RER, LRVs can be used.

Today's TorStar features an article today on this best being in the Metrolinx' purview, not Toronto's:
Former planner says transit batting average for GO, province way better than for city hall: James

“Take all capital investment decisions for transit away from municipal bodies” and boards of “political friends” and leave them to deputy ministers and good staff, advises ex planner.

By Royson JamesToronto Politics Columnist
Sun., April 30, 2017
The single most crippling result of decades of poor transit planning is the average citizen now expects more of the same.

Residents tell pollsters they support a particular transit proposal and they don’t believe it will deliver the benefits touted, and they anticipate the costs will rise — maybe even double, and it will take much longer to complete than forecasts promise.

Around here, commuters discount much of what they hear about transit promises, clinging to scant hope that the traveling experience will improve, even imperceptibly.

At a time when the Toronto region has embarked on an historic spending arc for transit, more money than ever before is at risk of being flushed away.

Everyone can point to a culprit: the idiot politician, in search of votes, who promises subways where improved bus service is appropriate; deceptive planners and their false forecasts; deluded citizens who argue they are owed a subway just because others have one, and the twin devils of deception: the politician-bureaucrat combo boldly arguing the transit equivalent of the Earth is flat.

David Crowley is a retired planner. He used to work for the TTC before he launched out into his own consulting business, which saw him do “demand forecasting” for several of projects.

He has regaled me recently with tales of woe on the state of transit planning.

Sometimes it descends to self-flagellation. Too often forecasted demand falls far short of reality. Too often — as is the case with his experience with the Sheppard subway — his skepticism wasn’t appreciated by his masters.

Now, he watches and weeps and drowns his sorrows with the likes of transit planning legends Dick Soberman and Ed Levy.

“Even where they ‘do it right,’ there are problems, and you can never get totally away from political influence,” he writes.

“My main consulting activity over the last decade or so of working was peer-reviewing demand forecasts based on benchmarking these forecasts against real world experience.

“The big thing that is lacking in all of this is ‘common sense.’

“Everything presented as fact should be assessed against what has been observed in the real world.

“People take model-based results too seriously, especially the professionals.”

So, even the planners are doubting themselves.

They are apoplectic when they talk about political interference — something that’s nearly impossible to avoid.

And they are wisely unsure about solutions that will work.

“My sense is that this sort of wasteful decision should cause average folks, including the taxpayers who will have to pay the bills, to rise up and throw the bums out,” Crowley says of the one-stop subway.

Thanks David, but if that were going to happen the politicians wouldn’t be peddling subways.

The UP Express, the Spadina subway extension, Sheppard subway and the current one-stop Scarborough wonder are examples of how not to build transit.

“Looking over the list I have to take some responsibility for the Sorbara line, in that I did a lot of work in support of that idea for Vaughan and York Region and also the UpExpress (which I was involved in from 2002 to 2014, not that anyone really read and understood what our reports said.) However, we humans are supposed to learn from our mistakes, especially now that we can look back with some objectivity,” he said.

Soberman, for his part, proposes the lesser of two evils as the best source of transit planning, in light of the fact that the politicians are never going to vacate the field.

With one notable exception, namely converting the Scarborough LRT to RT midway through construction at three times the price, provincial decisions about transit in the GTA have, on the whole been more or less sensible, Soberman says.

By province, he does not mean boards of political friends, who, he says, “contribute nothing to decision-making, but have a great time doing so.”

Most productive are the “few people, generally very professional deputy ministers who advise the minister and the government, often with good staff and/or consultants, but, admittedly, not always.

“No ‘boards’ built the first GO service to Pickering; a few smart guys did by convincing the minister of the day.

“When all is said and done, I think the only hope for improvement is to take all capital investment decisions for transit away from municipal bodies and left to the minister(s).

“In other words, don’t participate in joint funding led by municipal hacks.

“Of course, that doesn’t mean all decisions (like building a very expensive tunnel for low capacity transit) will be sensible, but we know that the batting average for GO/Province has been a helluva lot better than we’ve seen or will ever see from the boys and girls of City Hall.”

Arguable, but worth considering.
https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/20...ince-way-better-than-for-city-hall-james.html

My view? If Toronto can raise funds to do this, do it however they like. In the event, they can't, Toronto has already committed to a litany of projects that there's absolutely no funding for, so watch for the Province to re-examine the Relief Line, and how to fund it, and do it in the interests of regional users, not the Pape Entitlement. And build it with catenary and standard gauge tracks for both forward compatibility and to use what appears to be a surplus of Flexity LRVs headed our way, albeit use ones of the bi-voltage mode option to use the 25kVAC catenary that Metrolinx will be using for RER so that they are inter-operable.
Flexity Link
Main article: Flexity Link
The Flexity Link tram-train has dual voltage capabilities and is compatible with mainline railway regulations (e.g. BOStrab) that permit operation on both urban tram networks and mainline railways, reducing transport infrastructure costs. Although this particular model is only used in Saarbrücken,[12] a recent order has been made for dual-voltage Flexity Swift vehicles in Karlsruhe, where the tram-train concept was pioneered.[13]
[...]
The Flexity Link is a low-floor tram-train manufactured by Bombardier Transportation. It is designed to be able to run both on an urban tram network and on main railway lines, in order to provide direct journeys into a city's centre without passengers having to transfer from a regional train to a tram.

Flexity Link sets are currently used on the Saarbahn in and around Saarbrücken, Germany. Previously, they were used on the Karlsruhe Stadtbahn in Karlsruhe.

The Flexity Link's principal competitors in the tram-train market are the RegioCitadis and Citadis Dualis from Alstom, and the Avanto from Siemens.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flexity

The Flexity Freedom is available with the same dual-mode supply option so they can run on both RER and City Metrolinx LRT lines which can be interconnected.
 
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As long as commuters will accept a few transfers, an RER compatible DRL is sensible. If the DRL becomes an east-west connector between the Stouffville, Richmond Hill, and Barrie-Georgetown-UPX lines, we just need a one-stop subway from Pape station to the Gerard RER station and a means of having the DRL merge with the Barrie-Georgetown-UPX at or around Queen and Dufferin. We don't even need a transfer to the Richmond Hill GO line near King and the Don River, as a spur could run onto the Richmond Hill line north of Bloor as steveintoronto suggests. Union is relieved if trains can bypass it. I agree that, in addition to the Unilever and Pearson hubs, an RER station at Bathurst and Front, with a spur running north to the DRL, if only a streetcar ROW, is sensible relief for Union and provides greater system coverage.

I'd love to see a separate north-south line between the existing Barrie-Georgetown-UPX and University (Line 1), following either a Dufferin or Ossington alignment. I've said countless times that such a line could be included in the construction of a toll tunnel Allen Expressway extension running from Eglinton through a new RER station at Bathurst and Front, and merging with the Gardiner between Bathurst and Strachan, thereby providing an off/on-load for the Gardiner in the west, allowing for the eventual removal of the existing elevated Gardiner. It would be a shadow of Boston's Big Dig, fully funded, provide relief to Union, and pay the capital cost of constructing a large swath of downtown rapid transit without tolling existing highways. I would keep the on/off ramps to the Gardiner to and from Front St. (and Richmond and Adelaide just east of Bathurst) toll free. With the potential to extend the toll tunnel under Richmond and Adelaide to the CBD and DVP, allowing for removal of the elevated Gardiner, drivers would be able to enter the core without paying tolls, but would pay to bypass it. Replacing the Gardiner with a tunnel is a larger discussion, but a north-south toll tunnel with transit in the build is well worth consideration.

If we could make transfers efficient for movement and cost (quick platform to platform walks with smart, distance-based fare integration), a fully integrated regional system would work beautifully. Finally, for the sake of funding the DRL and other projects, scrap the one-stop Scarborough subway, upgrade trains on the existing RT and the subway transfer at Kennedy, and plow the savings into the DRL. If we implemented all of these measures (with or without the toll-tunnel train idea), the DRL would get built faster and with greater reach in the first phase. Location and quantity of additional stations will remain open for debate, but we should make better use of existing infrastructure.
 
There's no plans I'm aware of to run RER on the airport line - though I guess there is some benefit to those at Mount Dennis and Bloor.
You miss the intended point. He's talking mixing impending electrified vehicles that will replace the present Sharyos (which may or may not be shorted RER consists) and the resultant *headway* of the combined flows of various legs onto a trunk main. Union is almost at saturation as it is, due to the ancient signalling and control system. Move to a modern system, and headways of 2.5 minutes or less will be available on *the same track*! Think how much more flexibility and option there should/would be with the number of tracks through Union now. It may in fact be best to reduce the number of tracks, and increase platform space to handle the through-put a modern run-through RER would produce, not to mention Osgoode Relief being an RER station relieving much of the crush on both the present subways and GO at Union.

As to why the headway issue is being missed by so many is troubling. All this talk of "needing more tracks" completely misses what other operators are not only doing now, some have been achieving close to a 4 min headway for *almost a century*!
 
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I don't think it's anti-subway per se. Some have challenged whether the Relief Line could be something cheaper (like LRT) - which is an entirely reasonable and prudent thing to test..... transit should be scaled to the particular application rather than being pro-LRT or pro-subway. Personally, I'm convinced that DRL has to be full subway given ridership projections etc, but others may have other views.

And there are some who claim full subway isn't enough...

As to Subway vs RER, some people may be so in love with the RER concept that they are inclined to wax poetic about what it could become. I don't see any sign that the ML planning is leaning in their direction. But it's in the eye of the beholder, I guess. RER continues to be conceived as a "regional" system that in particular brings people in and out of the city center from much farther afield. All the documentation indicates that until about 2035, it won't be more than a 10-15 minute headway. It ought to be much better integrated with local transit, and if reconfigured in the 416 it can deliver much more value to within-416 transit, but that is at best complementary to the subway and LRT network rather than replacing any of it. Tunnelling on a different alignment is an interesting concept given that Union Station is bursting at the seams, but it isn't really fundable for the coming decade at least.

Personally, I think we should be seeking RER as well as DRL. As to what RER becomes, well, let's crawl before we run. Don't let the rhapsodising about a 2-minute-headway RER get in the way of just getting on with DRL.

- Paul

+1000

I think RER is a great concept but there are many transportation needs for the city/region and RER will not/cannot accomplish all of them.

1. Long distance suburb to core travel (core-oriented regional trips)
2. Long distance core to suburb travel (core-originating regional trips)
3. cross-town suburb-to-suburb travel
4. Relief of Bloor-Yonge interchange
5. Medium distance travel within the core city, especially "shoulder" areas of downtown
6. Address capacity shortfall of Yonge line
7. Capacity/Reliability improvements in existing transit grid for ridership growth
8. Support "transit first" development of waterfront
9. Relief of Union Station

Different projects address different needs...

  • RER is good for 1 and 2, helps 5 & 8, worsens 9.
  • 407 transitway is meant to help 3.
  • DRL-short addresses 4. DRL U addresses 4 and 5, helps 8 & 9. DRL J addresses 4, 5, and 6, helps 8 & 9.
  • Transit city was focused on 7 and 8, aggravated 6.
With the saga of SmartTrack and the griping that GO has over adding all but the minimum of in-city stations due to effects on upstream travel time (St. Clair and Lawrence stations were ruled out, for instance), it is not likely that the RER network would be replacing the subway for medium distance trips: some kind of high capacity distributor is needed and that takes the form of subways and LRTs.
 
I don't think it's anti-subway per se. Some have challenged whether the Relief Line could be something cheaper (like LRT) - which is an entirely reasonable and prudent thing to test..... transit should be scaled to the particular application rather than being pro-LRT or pro-subway. Personally, I'm convinced that DRL has to be full subway given ridership projections etc, but others may have other views.

And there are some who claim full subway isn't enough...
Bear in mind that initially, until the northern leg is built (if ever) that the subway will be run with four car trains, like the Sheppard Line. That's because of light loadings. Loadings that LRT could handle at a considerably lower cost even in the same tunnel.

To which the argument has been made: "But later, when we open the northern leg, we'll need greater capacity"...to which the very logical reply is "If this is meant as a *RELIEF* line, then it will need to carry more than what local service demand is, and in fact, it will need to be more than what a subway can convey, and built a lower cost". And that's RER.

The conventional subway supporters undo their own case by claiming how "the most expensive subway Toronto has ever built" will convey less than four car loads, but deny the LRT case (in tunnel or not) but then also deny the sense of making the tunnel and equipment forward compatible for later RER use such that (a) 'run-through' loop(s) can be done, as Metrolinx themselves plan to by-pass Union and offer a seamless no-transfer ride for the region to downtown save for the 'last mile' to their homes which would have to occur anyway, subway or otherwise.

The only rationale I can suss for denying forward compatibility of being part of a greater whole is a selfish desire to 'keep it for themselves'. I repeat, if the City wishes to do this with their own raised capital, so be it. But it isn't their funding. Private Investors wouldn't touch this, and why should the Province, with or without the Feds, fund a 'local line' that's underutilized to the point of using four-car trains?

Edit to Add: In fairness to all parties, what really doesn't help this situation is 'TTC gauge'. The original decision for streetcars to be TTC gauge is somewhat forgivable, albeit many of the original lines were standard gauge, later changed to TTC (all the interurbans were standard). What isn't forgivable is the TTC decision when the Yonge Line was built to continue using that gauge for the subway, although their thinking at the time was to 'make it compatible with streetcars'. Fast forward on that one!

It has complicated things manifold ever since. Metrolinx had the sense to go standard with the LRTs. The TTC now builds their subway tunnels at a much larger loading gauge, but is still stuck with the TTC track gauge. That will continue to complicate things moving forward, and the Relief Line is an example of that. It's not just track gauge alone, but it's symptomatic of 'Toronto v. The World'.
 
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The only rationale I can suss for denying forward compatibility of being part of a greater whole is a selfish desire to 'keep it for themselves'. I repeat, if the City wishes to do this with their own raised capital, so be it. But it isn't their funding. Private Investors wouldn't touch this, and why should the Province, with or without the Feds, fund a 'local line' that's underutilized to the point of using four-car trains?
The problem is private companies aren't interested in public transit if they have to pay for everything. Trains in the UK were a disaster when they di that until the National rail was formed to look after the rails and signals. Plus an public company is only after money and isn't concerned with the day to day problems of the poel using the service. Plus you run into the problem of what happens if it breaks down which is the reason why the TTC is going top be running all of the LRT lines being built in the city as per the agreement with Metrolinx that if there is trouble on the line they would only provide shuttle buses if they operate it.

Edit to Add: In fairness to all parties, what really doesn't help this situation is 'TTC gauge'. The original decision for streetcars to be TTC gauge is somewhat forgivable, albeit many of the original lines were standard gauge, later changed to TTC (all the interurbans were standard). What isn't forgivable is the TTC decision when the Yonge Line was built to continue using that gauge for the subway, although their thinking at the time was to 'make it compatible with streetcars'. Fast forward on that one!
The early work trains that have since been scrapped were all from the streetcar network, many places have different gauges and it isn't an issue with purchasing rolling stock.

It has complicated things manifold ever since. Metrolinx had the sense to go standard with the LRTs. The TTC now builds their subway tunnels at a much larger loading gauge, but is still stuck with the TTC track gauge. That will continue to complicate things moving forward, and the Relief Line is an example of that. It's not just track gauge alone, but it's symptomatic of 'Toronto v. The World'.
There isn't a lot of difference in size between standard and TTC Gauge it's only about an inch and 1/4 different. Metrolinx only went with standard gauge so they could sell the same vehicle design to other cities in Ontario and not have to regauge the trains. Any new subway lines built in the city of they comet to the existing network will likely be built to TTC Gauge. As far as I know the current pan for the DRL is that tio would cont with the existing Bloor Danforth line much like how Shepard connects with the Yonge University Spadina line so that tRains can be moved around and stored at different yard or have maintenance performed on them easier. Unlike with the SRT which is standard gauge and LIM powered and has to be trucked around for any major work that needs to be don on them.
 
The problem is private companies aren't interested in public transit if they have to pay for everything.
Eglinton Crosstown is PPP. There's many other examples, in Canada and worldwide.
Alternative Financing and Procurement Backgrounder | Crosstown
It's "On Time, and On Budget". What a concept for Toronto!

The Investment Bank's main cause d'etre is transportation infrastructure.
If approved by Parliament, the Bank would invest $35 billion from the federal government into transformative infrastructure projects. $15 billion would be sourced from the over $180 billion Investing in Canada infrastructure plan, including:

  • $5 billion for public transit systems;
  • $5 billion for trade and transportation corridors; and,
  • $5 billion for green infrastructure projects, including those that reduce greenhouse gas emissions, deliver clean air and safe water systems, and promote renewable power.
Specifically, the Bank would:

  • Invest in infrastructure projects that have revenue-generating potential and are in the public interest;
  • Attract private sector and institutional investors to projects so that more infrastructure can be built in Canada;
  • Serve as a centre of expertise on infrastructure projects in which private sector or institutional investors are making a significant investment;
  • Foster evidence-based decision making and advise all orders of government on the design of revenue-generating projects; and
  • Collect and share data to help governments make better decisions about infrastructure investments.
Here's just a few examples of private or P3:
http://www.snclavalin.com/en/urban-transit-projects-are-shaping-the-growth-of-canadian-cities
http://www.vancouversun.com/news/su...ent+fund+transit+projects/11198592/story.html
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/repo...billion-dedicated-track-plan/article24814969/
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...-sector-infrastructure-plans/article34482281/
The early work trains that have since been scrapped were all from the streetcar network, many places have different gauges and it isn't an issue with purchasing rolling stock.
Run-through onto existing tracks? Re-use for other modes? "Off-the-shelf"...not to mention the problems TTC gauge and curve radius caused for the Flexities. The TTC would have done same re-purposing streetcars as work vehicles if they and the subway were standard gauge, as many cities have done with their standard gauge stock. The TTC could have saved a bundle on re-using flat cars and other rolling stock from railway surplus, let lone buying "off the shelf" equipment.

There isn't a lot of difference in size between standard and TTC Gauge it's only about an inch and 1/4 different. Metrolinx only went with standard gauge so they could sell the same vehicle design to other cities in Ontario and not have to regauge the trains.
The Flexities are a European international gauge design and development. It was exactly having to re-tailor them to the TTC's use that caused so many complications. No-one else in Canada save for the Halton Rail Museum uses TTC gauge. There's only a couple of places in the world that do, mostly by quirk of history. They were designed and developed to internationally agreed (UIC) standards. Toronto is the exception, not the rest of Ontario.

Any new subway lines built in the city of they comet to the existing network will likely be built to TTC Gauge. As far as I know the current pan for the DRL is that tio would cont with the existing Bloor Danforth line much like how Shepard connects with the Yonge University Spadina line so that tRains can be moved around and stored at different yard or have maintenance performed on them easier.
Well since there's no obvious funding for that at this point beyond the $150M for preliminary design and evaluation, that's pure conjecture. Metrolinx decided against using TTC gauge for good reason, not the least being that no-one else uses TTC gauge.

Toronto-centricity is fine...if Toronto pays for it.
 
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It doesn't matter how the crosstown is being funded to be built all I said wa the TTC refused to provide shuttle buses if they didn't run it. It has nothing to do with who builds it or maintains the trains.

Run-through onto existing tracks? Re-use for other modes? "Off-the-shelf"...not to mention the problems TTC gauge and curve radius caused for the Flexities. The TTC would have done same re-purposing streetcars as work vehicles if they and the subway were standard gauge, as many cities have done with their standard gauge stock. The TTC could have saved a bundle on re-using flat cars, etc from railway surplus.
I was talking about for the DRL as they don't want to find the space for an extra yard to store extra equipment just for one small line if that will run only from a short distance at the begin if it ever gets built. The proposed alignment is from somewhere along the BD line at Pape probably and then down to Queen Street there isn't anywhere for them to build a yard that would be of use to them along that route so using Greenwood yard is the only alternative so it would have to be TTC gauge

I'm sorry? The Flexities are a European international gauge design and development. It was exactly having to re-tailor them to the TTC's use that caused so many complications. No-one else in Canada save for the Halton Rail Museum uses TTC gauge. There's only a couple of places in the world that do, mostly by quirk of history.
Gauge wasn't an issue gauging a rail vehicle is quite common in fact the TTC bought many PCC cars from other cities and rigged them. It doesn't relly mater what gauge they are the problems are because of the tight tuning radius we have do to the streets in Toronto

Well since there's no obvious funding for that at this point, that's pure conjecture. I repeat: Metrolinx decided against using TTC gauge, for good reason, not the least being that no-one else uses TTC gauge.

Toronto-centricity is fine...if Toronto pays for it.
Metrolinx actly didn't decide oty it was planned for the Transit City lines as well for them to be standard gauge as well as they were going to have separate yard for them and din't think it would be necessary to connect to the existing network.

TTC Gauge only exist because in the early days of Streetcar there was a threat of the train companies running trains on the streets so it was made to be larger gauge so they couldn't easily run on the streets of Toronto.
 
If we want train relief for Union and for the DRL to have the reach that all those existing GO lines provide, why wouldn't we use standard gauge?
 
If we want train relief for Union and for the DRL to have the reach that all those existing GO lines provide, why wouldn't we use standard gauge?
Because the point of the downtown relief line isn't to relieve outside traffic coming into Union station it's to relive changes at younge and Bloor station. That's why it would be TTC gauge and will connect to the TTC network. You seem to be confusing the relief line with RER which is a different project all together which involves Go trasit adding additional stops on the way to Union station with more frequent service.
 
To benefit from regional system capacity, provincial funding, and to provide relief for Union, I'd think that making it RER compatible is key. Toronto needs to adapt to its regional context.
 
To benefit from regional system capacity, provincial funding, and to provide relief for Union, I'd think that making it RER compatible is key. Toronto needs to adapt to its regional context.
True but this thread is about a relief line for the subway and not for regional commuters. Yonge and Bloor is busier then Union station is for the TTC, because of all the people in the city of Toronto who use it to get downtown. I'm not dismissing your ideas it's just not the right form to talk about it in.
 
You'll get more and better relief for the Yonge-U subway line if the DRL trains can enter existing rail corridors. You'll get greater reach to more areas and stations sooner, and you may actually get the funding to build it. Without funding all of this DRL business might as well be on the fantasy thread. Lots of talk in this city, little action.
 
You'll get more and better relief for the Yonge-U subway line if the DRL trains can enter existing rail corridors. You'll get greater reach to more areas and stations sooner, and you may actually get the funding to build it. Without funding all of this DRL business might as well be on the fantasy thread. Lots of talk in this city, little action.

Actually, this one is hanging in on the radar screen quite well and while it's expensive there really isn't sticker shock..... just political nausea and cowardice. The worst thing that could happen to it is to start confounding models and technologies and gauges that have interfaces to other agencies with different political bases, and other service concepts that are still only on paper in this city. Keep it to a nice, simple subway.....everyone in the city (and beyond it) understands those.

The money will be found, at least at the provincial and federal level....those have elections coming up, and there is too much precedent for either to say "no" completely. The weakest link is Mr Tory and those Councillors beholden to him. They are the only ones who don't seem to understand the idea of taxing Toronto to pay for Toronto's needs.

- Paul
 

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